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 Language Learning Forum : Specific Languages |  | |
| vilas Pentaglot Senior Member Italy Joined 6964 days ago 531 posts - 722 votes  Speaks: Spanish, Italian*, English, French, Portuguese | Message 33 of 65 14 August 2006 at 1:17pm | IP Logged | |||||
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For Easyboy
This is Milanese. Are you still sure that somebody, foreigner who knows only standard italian understand this mor than the calabrian?? Still sure La cugumìna Sura pensér, quan che ghe l’ho ‘n mà la lae mia zó ma la rezènte apena la me cafetierina e pó dòp sena la fó en tre tòch e la mète a sgusulà. Par che la piànze e dal sò cantunsì bötàda iselà de göst e spès la ghe nà al mal e la me àrda sbiès con chèl négher, ridicol capilì. A pensàga dre be, so ‘n pó catìa: tratala isé! En castìgh ne la cuzìna la crèd de valì niènt ma la sa mia che prim de töt el rèst ogne matina quand amó ‘ndormènsa dèrve el dé apena desedàda pènse a lé. Traduzione in italiano La macchinetta del caffè Soprappensiero, quando la tengo in mano non la lavo ma la risciacquo solamente la mia caffettierina e dopo cena la faccio in tre pezzi e la metto a sgocciolare. Sembra che pianga e dal suo cantuccio in malo modo gettata spesso e volentieri se ne risente e mi guarda storto con quel suo nero, ridicolo cappellino. Sono un poco cattiva, pensandoci a trattarla così. In castigo in cucina lei crede di non valere nulla ma non sa che per prima cosa ogni mattina quando ancora addormentata apro il giorno a lei vola il mio primo pensiero. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
 Iversen Super Polyglot Moderator Denmark berejst.dk Joined 6707 days ago 9078 posts - 16473 votes Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian Personal Language Map | Message 34 of 65 14 August 2006 at 7:36pm | IP Logged | |||||
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I am a foreigner, and I have not delved into Milanesi before, and yes, I would have trouble understanding the Milanesi text, if Vilas had not been kind enough to translate it.
Things like linguistic history (in the strict sense), sources of loan words, interintelligibility, 'switching' patterns when speaking to people with other dialects, standards for writing, use in radio/TV, academies, theater etc. and political status of the speakergroup all should be taken in account before deciding whether a certain dialect belongs to a certain language. But looking at concrete specimens is a good starting point. I'll try to look at the elements of the texts above one by one, but of course one text is not enough to draw a conclusion, especially for someone who doesn't know the dialect (or language?) in question. 'La cugumina': the use of a special word for a much beloved machine could be a matter of slang. The question is: could you say cugumina or something like that even when speaking standard Italian (SI) in Milano? There are other differences in vocabulary, such as '(re)zénte' vs. '(ri)sciaquo', which are more significant because they concern more neutral words. The translation of 'apena' to SI 'solamente' is not really indicative of anything because both words are represented in all neighbouring languages, - is there a real difference in usage here or is it just a choice by the translator? For instance Old Occitan has both 'ab penas' and 'solament', and SI has not only 'solamente', but also 'appena'. The same applies to 'bötàda' for gettata: SI does have the verb 'buttare'. As for 'de güst' vs. SI 'volontieri': you may not say 'di gusto' in SI with the meaning of 'volontieri', but the word 'gusto' does exist. As for vocabulary I would on the basis of this one text say that Milanesi does lean towards West, but not so much that it definitively puts it there. For historial linguists the family tree of a language group can be found through analysis of sequences of sound shifts plus historical evidence for when the shifts occurred. They have put Milanesi (as part of something called Lombard) in a group called Gallo-Italian, but I don't know the exact sound shifts that you have to look for. The correspondences I can see do not suffice to decide whether Milanesi is an Italian dialect or not. For instance take 'Sura penser' (SI 'soprapensiero'): will SI '-pr-' generally be '-r-' in Milanese? Will the SI diphtong 'ie' (derived from stressed flat e) generally be 'é'? An on another level: is the SI suffix '-iero' always represented by just 'é' in Milanesi (it seems that Milanesi generally has a tendency to reduce endings)? And so on. When the historical linguists insist that they have proof that Milanese belongs on another branch than Tuscan and SI I have to accept it until further notice. But even if Milanese has through all its history been separate from Tuscan and other Central Italian dialects there may be factors at work now that will in due time narrow the gap to Standard Italian and in the end may mean that Milanesi is 'swallowed' by Italian. In this process it is important whether there is an alternative, and I don't see one. Unless the wild plans about an independent Padania become reality it seems unrealistic that the administration or the school system will switch to Milanese (or some non-existing common Gallo-Italian koine). The only thing that speaks in favor of a future for Milanese is the traditionally strong position in Italy for the dialects, due to the short time the country has been united. Oh, and by the way: I do find that the Calabrese song in spite of many -u's and a couple of funny spellings is easier to understand than the Milanese. It reminds me of the popular Napolitan songs which are better known outside Italy. Edited by Iversen on 14 August 2006 at 8:06pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| patuco Diglot Moderator Gibraltar Joined 7019 days ago 3795 posts - 4268 votes Speaks: Spanish, English* Personal Language Map | Message 35 of 65 14 August 2006 at 8:20pm | IP Logged | |||||
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As a "foreigner who knows only standard Italian" I had a much harder time with Milanese rather than Calabrese. Milanese seems a mixture of Italian, French and Catalan.
1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| vilas Pentaglot Senior Member Italy Joined 6964 days ago 531 posts - 722 votes Speaks: Spanish, Italian*, English, French, Portuguese | Message 36 of 65 15 August 2006 at 10:43am | IP Logged | |||||
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Dear Easyboy , I did'n't expect that luck ! To find support by a Danish and a Gibraltarian .... I think there is nothing else to say.
If you want to do a nice test you can go in a "language identifier" that you can find searching in google and put a little sentence in any dialect you like ( in internet is full of pieces of milanese, calabrese, piemontese , sicilano ecc.ecc. and put it in the "find it" button....then you see, most of the time milanese is identified as "catalan,french," and bergamasco it is even identified as "slowak, ukrainian, frisian" but if you put siciliano, calabrese ,napoletano, romano, siciliano are more often identified as "italian,latin,,Spanish," that agree with my thesis ....these are italo romance languages and northern dialects are gallo romance..... 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Iversen Super Polyglot Moderator Denmark berejst.dk Joined 6707 days ago 9078 posts - 16473 votes Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian Personal Language Map | Message 37 of 65 15 August 2006 at 1:40pm | IP Logged | |||||
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Well, I support that Milanesi is further away from Standard Italian than I expected. But it is still neither French nor Catalan, in fact not even Occitan.
It might be interesting to look into the history of these northern dialects to see why there never developed a strong standardized Northern language, - lets call it Padanian. I haven't a clue about old Milanese, but I did check out some texts in Veneto I found on the internet. The oldest fragments in Veneto should be from around 1300, but I haven't seen these. However I have read Ruzante (ca.1496-1542), and my impression was that it looked like a cross between Romanch and Italian (but neither Catalan, Occitan nor French). Already when we get to the next big name in Venezian comedy, Goldoni (1707-1793), the language is much closer to Italian, and present day Veneto as on this homepage is quite close to standard Italian. Milanesi (or Lombard) is not Venetian, it is closer to France and there has been much more interference from the French even before Napoleon. But at the end the whole area became part of Italy, and now everybody in Milano etc. watch RAI, read newpapers in Standard Italian and go to schools which only teach Standard Italian. I have visited Northern Italy about ten times without even suspecting that they had such a strange dialect. They don't behave like people with a language, but like people speaking a dialect at home and Standard something everywhere else. In short, to me the whole bunch of Northern dialects look like a bunch of dialects searching for a language (to paraphrase Pirandello). But they never found it, and now Standard Italian is gobbling them up, one by one. Edited by Iversen on 15 August 2006 at 2:02pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| patuco Diglot Moderator Gibraltar Joined 7019 days ago 3795 posts - 4268 votes Speaks: Spanish, English* Personal Language Map | Message 38 of 65 16 August 2006 at 8:38am | IP Logged | |||||
I'd just like to make it clear that I didn't intend to start any "fights" or to take sides. I was just commenting on what I perceived.
I know, but it reminds me of them. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| vilas Pentaglot Senior Member Italy Joined 6964 days ago 531 posts - 722 votes Speaks: Spanish, Italian*, English, French, Portuguese | Message 39 of 65 16 August 2006 at 11:56am | IP Logged | |||||
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I don't want to fight ...It just is sounded very strange what Easyboy said....
Iversen said "...there never developed a strong standardized Northern language, - lets call it Padanian...." This it is absolutely right ! But... please don't use the word Padania because it is never existed !!! it is only an invention of some people.... I was born in Torino, where the dialect is Piedmontese...very influenced by French (France dominated Piedmont for about a century and in Torino first capital of Italy, the first king Vittorio Emanuele of Italy and his prime minister Cavour used to speak only French and/or Piedmontese, they did'n't know Italian ) Once I went in France( it is only one hour driving from Torino ) and me and my friends experiment to speak only piedmontese with the frenchs ...we were able to communicate almost everything... If I talk Piedmontese with a Milanese , we don't understand each other...even if both dialects are from the same family.... If somebody from Naples speaks neapolitan (not fast of course) he can be understood in all Southern Italy and Sicily ,and also many central and northern italians can understand it, in facts , Neapolitan music is very popular for this reason.... Venetian , as I said in a previous post is also very well understood in almost all Italy, and the venetian comedies of Carlo Goldoni are often in the national Tv. Other dialects like Milanese Bergamasco,Piedmontese,Genovese..( but also some southern like foggiano, barese, molisano ecc. are understood only by their native speakers..... It also true that dialects can be spoken allways in 2 versions, one more "strict" "tight"(stretta, I don't know how to say it in english) and another more soft Dialects in Italy are spoken more in the countryside or in the big cities by people that use it only at home or in limited groups... I haven't a clue about old Milanese, but I did check out some texts in Veneto I found on the internet. The oldest fragments in Veneto should be from around 1300, but I haven't seen these. However I have read Ruzante (ca.1496-1542), and my impression was that it looked like a cross between Romanch and Italian (but neither Catalan, Occitan nor French). Already when we get to the next big name in Venezian comedy, Goldoni (1707-1793), the language is much closer to Italian, and present day Veneto as on this homepage is quite close to standard Italian. Milanesi (or Lombard) is not Venetian, it is closer to France and there has been much more interference from the French even before Napoleon. But at the end the whole area became part of Italy, and now everybody in Milano etc. watch RAI, read newpapers in Standard Italian and go to schools which only teach Standard Italian. I have visited Northern Italy about ten times without even suspecting that they had such a strange dialect. They don't behave like people with a language, but like people speaking a dialect at home and Standard something everywhere else. In short, to me the whole bunch of Northern dialects look like a bunch of dialects searching for a language (to paraphrase Pirandello). But they never found it, and now Standard Italian is gobbling them up, one by one. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| easyboy82 Pentaglot Groupie Italy Joined 6834 days ago 72 posts - 75 votes Speaks: Italian*, French, English, Latin, Ancient Greek Studies: Greek | Message 40 of 65 08 January 2007 at 9:11am | IP Logged | |||||
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Dear Vilas, I just wanted to let you know that I'm not from Milan but from La Spezia and that I'm not a supporter of the Lega Nord but of the Communist Party.
Ok end of the OT. Your attitude is a very fighting one,nearly rude, while I'd like to talk constructively and in peace. I think there are many misunderstandings in this topic. My intention was only one and it was intended for foreigners who are willing to learn Italian : go for the standard language and not for dialects if you have no linguistic or academic interest in a specific dialect. Some foreigners, from what I read in this and other forums, are misguided by Ethnologue reports for Italy (which have been criticized by Italians even on the Italian version of the Wikipedia) and think that to speak with Sicilian people they have to use Sicilian dialect or they won't be understood. It is important to make them know that everyone in Italy is able to understand Standard Italian NATIVELY , and to speak it too. Someone is also able to speak a dialect, which he uses at home or with friends but still consider himself as an Italian speaker. When I told Northern Italian dialects are closer to Standard Italian than Southern ones I have not been clear , I admit it. I spoke about dialects but what I meant was "Regional variant of the Italian language" and you should admit that Regional forms of Italian (which means Standard Italian language + some regional expressions,words and constructions) of the north are less influenced by the proper dialect than southern ones. It is important to make foreigners know that no one in Italy consider himself as a non native Italian speaker. No one will tell you "I'm a Venetian speaker and I learnt Italian at school". This is what I want to be clear. And I hope I have been clearer this time because not being an english native speaker I would be so much more if I could speak about all the question in Italian. Edited by easyboy82 on 08 January 2007 at 9:20am 1 person has voted this message useful |
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