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Self-teaching methods declared useless | ||
Tags: Rosetta Stone | Self-Study | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Learning Techniques, Methods & Strategies |  | |
| Jeffers Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 4844 days ago 2151 posts - 3960 votes  Speaks: English* Studies: Hindi, Ancient Greek, French, Sanskrit, German | Message 41 of 81 13 September 2011 at 2:09pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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Somehow we've struck a raw nerve with s_allard. He makes a lot of good points nevertheless.
Of course private tutoring can be good. I'm sure immersion programmes can be good as well. But the amount of money people are willing to spend on something does not equate with quality. It that were true, then Rosetta Stone would be brilliant! As regards language classes in school, the article I quoted in the original post also trashed them. She said something to the effect that if it's more than a few students, you won't learn much. I'm a teacher myself, so I know that most language teachers have fight an uphill battle with a full class of students, most of whom are unwilling to engage with the subject. It is obviously better at higher levels and in university. Myself, I had great experiences with language classes in my high school and in university, but this is often not the case. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| petteri Triglot Senior Member Finland Joined 4867 days ago 117 posts - 208 votes Speaks: Finnish*, English, Swedish Studies: German, Spanish | Message 42 of 81 13 September 2011 at 2:51pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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The most important factor of language learning is missing. The effort.
In my opinion if language is learned or used at the constant rate of under five hours a week, results of language learning are usually close to nil. No matter if it is class room, self study or privates. Within 5-10 hours there is transition zone where results vary. But if language is studied and used seriously at the rate of over 10 hours a week, language learning really accelerated. But few learners really achieve such study rates without immersion. Basic problem of most study methods is that learners just use too little time to learn. This is pretty obvious in schools where affective study time of unmotivated students can be really minimal as well as study results. As well most self learners never study seriously and achieve minimal results. For successful language learning it is more important to keep the good pace every day than which methods to use. 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Volte Tetraglot Senior Member Switzerland Joined 6374 days ago 4474 posts - 6726 votes Speaks: English*, Esperanto, German, Italian Studies: French, Finnish, Mandarin, Japanese | Message 43 of 81 13 September 2011 at 2:53pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
I've had private tutoring for a number of languages, at a variety of ages (the earliest was when I was 12). I don't find private tutoring, in and of itself, to be useful. Combined with an active interest in the language, it can be a good resource. However, most tutors don't know anything about phonetics. Many are not native speakers, and are far less useful for "can I say this this way?" and "how is this pronounced?" and "does it sound ok to say this, or is it outdated, or wrong for my age/gender/social role/this situation/etc, and what should I say instead?" questions than untrained native friends. Formal knowledge of grammar, and ability to explain vary widely among tutors. Interacting one-on-one with native speakers is, of course, extremely valuable. Having questions answered quickly is a huge boon. Tutoring? Not so much - in the common case, you're waiting days for an answer, until your next session with your tutor. Obviously, non-interactive materials don't interactively correct you, and having someone that can can be useful. That said, in practice, when I've had either Assimil, or unstructured time with native speakers (whether or not I'm paying them for tutoring me), Assimil is way more helpful. The most positive tutoring experience I've had was with Sprachprofi - although that was for Latin, which isn't her native language, and which she's not conversational in. Tutoring can be extremely valuable - but most tutoring isn't. Edit: also, the amount of tutors who are willing to simply repeat sounds, words, and phrases enough times for many types of phonetics work seem to be vanishingly small... Edited by Volte on 13 September 2011 at 2:59pm 4 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Jeffers Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 4844 days ago 2151 posts - 3960 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Hindi, Ancient Greek, French, Sanskrit, German | Message 44 of 81 13 September 2011 at 3:42pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
I have had good experiences with private tutoring in Hindi, but the last point you make was a real problem in the tutoring I had. We would drill, for example, subjunctive verb forms on one day. The next day I'd say I think I needed more practice, and the tutors would say, "But you understand this." Of course I understood it in principle, but having tried to use it on the street, I realized I needed more drilling in order to use it confidently and quickly. The tutors I had tended to get bored when things got repetitive. Edited by Jeffers on 13 September 2011 at 3:43pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| montmorency Diglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 4763 days ago 2371 posts - 3676 votes Speaks: English*, German Studies: Danish, Welsh | Message 45 of 81 13 September 2011 at 3:49pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
Interesting point. I believe there was a BBC documentary some years ago, in which Michel Thomas was invited into an inner-city school to try out his methods on what we can imagine to have been a tough crowd, with good results. (Unfortunately, I didn't see the actual documentary, but I've seen references to it). I have no idea if the school later continued with the self-study versions of his courses, or if any other schools have tried them. Perhaps not, given Thomas' often stated attitude towards traditional language learning. Whenever I have mentioned his name to Open University tutors, they have been a bit sniffy about him. Professional rivalry perhaps. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5365 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 46 of 81 13 September 2011 at 3:50pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
I guess Volte and I don't agree on what a tutor, a private instructor or a language coach can be. My main disagreement is with the blanket statement, "Tutoring can be extremely valuable - but most tutoring isn't."? My experience is totally the opposite. But I'm not going to argue. I've already stated why I like working with a private instructor. If you find that a book and a CD give you better results than working with a native speaker, then that's best for you. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Jeffers Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 4844 days ago 2151 posts - 3960 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Hindi, Ancient Greek, French, Sanskrit, German | Message 47 of 81 13 September 2011 at 4:00pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
I found this comment somewhat strange. Of course the problem is lumping together all self study methods. When the original article mentions self study methods, the author automatically turns to a description of Rosetta Stone. Look at the authors of the Teach Yourself books. All of the TY books I have are written by university professors. But of course you're not going to hear about self-study methods at a conference on language teaching. That would be like a dog convention extolling the virtues of neutering. However, s_allard is absolutely correct to describe the methods as complimentary. Edited by Jeffers on 13 September 2011 at 4:01pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Arekkusu Hexaglot Senior Member Canada bit.ly/qc_10_lec Joined 5316 days ago 3971 posts - 7747 votes Speaks: English, French*, GermanC1, Spanish, Japanese, Esperanto Studies: Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Estonian | Message 48 of 81 13 September 2011 at 4:15pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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Has anyone ever taught a class using a self-study method, and used classroom time to supplement and solidify that knowledge? It seems like that would work, but I've never heard of this done...
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