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Self-teaching methods declared useless | ||
Tags: Rosetta Stone | Self-Study | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Learning Techniques, Methods & Strategies |  | |
| Volte Tetraglot Senior Member Switzerland Joined 6374 days ago 4474 posts - 6726 votes  Speaks: English*, Esperanto, German, Italian Studies: French, Finnish, Mandarin, Japanese | Message 57 of 81 13 September 2011 at 11:23pm | IP Logged | |||||
In theory, I agree with that. In practice, tutors vary drastically in their abilities in various areas. No matter how much I want a tutor to ask about idiomatic speech, an 'intermediate' student of the language won't be able to fill in that role for me - nor will many natives be able to answer formal grammar questions. Even trained tutors who are native speakers have vastly differing backgrounds, capabilities, preferences, goals, etc. Neither the tutor nor the student are anything near a blank state, or infinitely flexible and adaptable. And, if I know enough about the drills available in the language to micro-manage which one I'm getting, I probably don't need the tutor. Very few tutors actually are very good 'resource' people, in my experience. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| cpnlsn88 Triglot Groupie United Kingdom Joined 4972 days ago 63 posts - 112 votes Speaks: English*, German, French Studies: Spanish, Esperanto, Latin | Message 58 of 81 14 September 2011 at 12:02am | IP Logged | |||||
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I agree that all of these methodologies are tools that are on offer to the individual and to some extent each individial needs to be an empowered learner and make their own choices.
I have found that I need some different methods with the different languages I have learned, so each learner needs to have some ability to 'sense' what tey need. There is no one way, I beleive, but some generalised caveats can be set out which are non-controversial: One method on its own probably won't work; A well designed self study course can be a good way to start; You need to put in a lot of effort to get significant progress - of course, depends on your aims and objectives - there's a lot to be said for more limited goals and progress rather than these exaggerated claims made to shift books and cassettes; Classes should be taught to emphasise target language, participation and be enjoyable (this is a big ask - at a lower level it's more important for the teachers to have a good methodology (just my view)) Contact with authentic inputs (radio, TV, newspapers) as well as language production with native speakers. In this mix everything has its place (potentially), though I admit a bad class can be dispiritng. I think the teach yourself products out there can be good for the basics but just don't take you very far. For my German I have needed to do different things than for French like more grammar and vocab and having lessons with a native speaker. More than the generalisations above I don't think there are any rules (of course - a lot of time and effort and contact with the language - including audio - are non-negotiable whichever method(s) you choose). 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5365 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 59 of 81 14 September 2011 at 6:35am | IP Logged | |||||
Really, I don't see why we have to discuss this question of tutors any more. I have stated that the great value of having a real person to work with is feedback. Obviously some tutors, instructors, teachers, buddies or whatever you call them are better than others. If feedback is not important for you, then save your money and time and don't use such a person. In earlier posts I have given all the things I like about working with a live person. It all boils down to corrective feedback. Let me give a specific example. If someone wants to learn to speak Mandarin and has the choice of working solely with a self-study program--let's say Assimil-- or with a tutor for 50 hours plus the self-study method of their choice--maybe Assimil--, is Volte saying that the person should refuse the tutor because "Very few tutors actually are very good 'resource' people, in my experience"? I beg to differ. I think you would have to be crazy to refuse the services of a tutor. Frankly, I don't need a PhD graduate in linguistics or a trained language teacher as a tutor. Any relatively educated person with some interest in language can do the job. I want someone to speak with, to correct my pronunciation and to answer some questions. That's not very complicated. Most people can do that. Maybe the fundamental issue here is what exactly are we trying to learn. I see two basic options: A. My main goal to be able to understand the spoken language, speak the language with the best phonology and be able to interact linguistically and socially with native speakers. B. I am not interested in actually speaking the language or interacting with native speakers. I want to understand the spoken language in the media. My main interest is the written language. In my mind, I don't see how one can even think about option A without some form of tutoring. I've said this many times before. How exactly is Assimil or Fluenz or whatever going to correct my pronunciation and help me with my conversation skills? On the other hand, option B probably does not require a tutor. So that's probably the real issue here. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Jeffers Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 4844 days ago 2151 posts - 3960 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Hindi, Ancient Greek, French, Sanskrit, German | Message 60 of 81 14 September 2011 at 7:53am | IP Logged | |||||
Really? ;) 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
 Iversen Super Polyglot Moderator Denmark berejst.dk Joined 6638 days ago 9078 posts - 16473 votes Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian Personal Language Map | Message 61 of 81 14 September 2011 at 10:04am | IP Logged | |||||
Maybe the choice between A and B can influence which kind of tutor you want and what you are going to do together. Maybe even in the paradoxical sense that you would (or should) prefer a tutor who focuses on your weak points - so that A should be trained in writing and B in speaking. Besides it doesn't matter whether your are an A or a B: if you pay good money for a tutor you should be entitled to get a good tutor. And just as all native speakers aren't born speakers or born authors all native speakers aren't born tutors. It is not enough to be able to hear (or see) the errors and propose another sound or other words. A tutor should be able to see a pattern in the errors committed by the learner and propose remedies for those things that go beyond single, isolated corrections. And a certain knowledge about phonology and grammar is without doubt a prerequisite for doing that. This doesn't mean that only linguists with a university degree should function as tutors - actually such people might be too theoretical and too obsessed with their own preferred study objects. But a tutor should have thought about his/her language instead of just using it - otherwise he/she can't explain the patterns in the errors which I mentioned above, but will just point out a lot of isolated errors (which may not even be errors, given that a bad tutor may not be able to see the difference between gross errors and minor deviations from the preferred style of the tutor) instead of going for advice that make a real difference. And given that something should be corrected: not everyone is capable of formulating in words why there was an error - and then they just end up with the inane solution: "don't say like this, say like that". Because of my non-existant experience with paid tutors (being stubbornly independent and economical at the same time) I can't judge the average level so maybe the world is brimming with born tutors, but I do remember my language teachers - and they where certainly not all equally qualified to teach. Edited by Iversen on 14 September 2011 at 10:15am 4 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5365 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 62 of 81 14 September 2011 at 1:58pm | IP Logged | |||||
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If the term tutor seems to be the problem, let's use a more generic term like "native resource person." Nobody is disputing the fact that being a native speaker does not make you automatically a great resource person for a language. Of course, you want the best resource person that you can find. My minimum criteria is: native speaker and university trained, preferably in a language related field.
My preference is option A, i.e. My main goal to be able to understand the spoken language, speak the language with the best phonology and be able to interact linguistically and socially with native speakers. I don't see the point in Iversen's suggestion that I should hire a resource person to concentrate on writing when my main interest is in speaking. When I work for 60 - 75 minutes with a resource person, here are some of the things I do: 1. Work on a specific language topic or lesson plan from a book or something downloaded from the Internet. 2. Listen to recordings with a transcript in hand and discuss usage, including pronunciation. 3. Go through a page or two of a newspaper or a magazine looking at usage. 4. Practice pronunciation with special emphasis on prosody. I have the resource person repeat a phrase around 5 times and I repeat it at least 12 times with corrections when necessary. 5. Discuss specific topics with an emphasis on correction of my mistakes and developing idiomatic speech and narrative skills. I come to the lesson with at least 5 new expressions or words that I want to use. These discussions usually come from questions such as: "What did you do...?", "What do you think of...?", "What happened?" or "How do you explain...?" 6. Practice conversational interaction: asking and replying to questions, using connector words, interjections and conversational markers, simulating common situations, etc. 7. Answer any questions that I may have. Since I always carry a notebook, I jot down things that I hear or see that I don't quite understand. This is especially important for things like slang, casual language and cultural references that one does not find in books. One very important subject is language register, that is the appropriate language in a given situation. "How do I say this?" 8. Rehearse presentations, speeches or interviews that I may have to do. 9. Do some activities together like go shopping and put the language to real use. If we are in a restaurant, I may try something out on the spot. I always come away from these meetings all fired up because the language has come alive. I feel that my speaking proficiency has increased immediately. But remember there is a lot of work between these sessions. As I have said so many times, the real value here is corrective feedback. This builds confidence. I know that I'm the right track. I know that what I'm saying is idiomatic and what people will expect to hear. I can go out and actually use the language. Obviously, this is not for everybody. If you are not interested in actually speaking the language, all of this is useless. Edited by s_allard on 14 September 2011 at 2:42pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5365 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 63 of 81 14 September 2011 at 3:51pm | IP Logged | |||||
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Here in Montreal I volunteer as a resource person in French and English for a few language meetup groups. These are groups where learners and native speakers get together to practice the target language and to help others. Why do people keep coming to these things when they could stay home and listen to some language CD's or read a book?
Rather than give the obvious answer, I'll give some examples. There are always recent immigrants who are preparing for government language tests. They need practice. Part of the test involves writing a certain kind of document. People bring me a sample of their work and we go over it. The other day, someone wanted to write a letter to a company to explain why they refused a job offer. We reviewed the letter together and used this as a learning opportunity. What's the alternative to working with a native resource person? Do it on your own. I shudder to think what the person receiving an uncorrected letter would think of the person who sent the letter. Why do professional authors work with editors whose job is to polish the final product? Every writer can use feedback. How can you improve if you don't have some sort of constructive criticism? Edited by s_allard on 14 September 2011 at 8:24pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Jeffers Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 4844 days ago 2151 posts - 3960 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Hindi, Ancient Greek, French, Sanskrit, German | Message 64 of 81 14 September 2011 at 6:59pm | IP Logged | |||||
Allow me to reverse your quote: Why do people keep buying language CD's and books when they could simply go to a language group? Why does it have to be one or the other? I don't think anyone here will argue that tutors are not useful if you can afford one and you find a good one. But if you say that it is not possible to learn a language by self-study, then you're plain wrong. Of course you can point out the multitudes who buy self-study courses and never get past the first few chapters. The same thing happens with people who use tutors, attend lessons, get help from native speakers, etc. No method of learning language is "easy", and people lose motivation no matter how they learn. 1 person has voted this message useful |
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