|
 |
Self-teaching methods declared useless | ||
Tags: Rosetta Stone | Self-Study | ||
Share with:
| ||
 Language Learning Forum : Learning Techniques, Methods & Strategies |  | |
| Arekkusu Hexaglot Senior Member Canada bit.ly/qc_10_lec Joined 5316 days ago 3971 posts - 7747 votes  Speaks: English, French*, GermanC1, Spanish, Japanese, Esperanto Studies: Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Estonian | Message 65 of 81 14 September 2011 at 7:43pm | IP Logged | |||||
Same reason my mother in law buys low-calorie cookies instead of learning how to cook properly. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| jazzboy.bebop Senior Member Norway norwegianthroughnove Joined 5353 days ago 439 posts - 800 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Norwegian | Message 66 of 81 14 September 2011 at 7:45pm | IP Logged | |||||
Indeed. The same problem can also be applied to learning a musical instrument. Many people give up not necessarily because of the methodology they are using to learn their instrument - whether it be from a tutor or by self-teaching - but from the fact that it takes a lot of cumulative work to really get something out of it. People can get very frustrated with the seeming lack of progress and see the learning process as a chore and then quit before they start seeing returns which are meaningful to them. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5365 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 67 of 81 14 September 2011 at 8:17pm | IP Logged | |||||
Let's not mix things up here. Just as I pointed out that the author quoted in the OP did not declare that self-study methods are useless, as is touted in the title of this thread, the issue isn't whether working with native resource persons is better than using a book, CD's or any self-study product or why are people still buying books or CD's. Nobody says that it's one or the other. I don't know how many times I have to repeat that these are among the many tools, including formal classes, immersion, Internet, language meetups, etc., in a language learner's toolbox and one must use the right tools for the right job. With that silly question out of the way, what is the real issue here? It seems to me that the object of the latest turn of the discussion is the value and role of native resource persons. I may be wrong, and I am willing to stand corrected, but I had the impression that some people believe that using a so-called tutor was often not effective, not worth the bother and that similar results could be had with a good self-study product. In fact, one poster said that an Assimil package was the equivalent of 50 hours of private instruction. I have argued with lots of concrete examples that have not been refuted that despite all the vagaries of finding the right native resource persons, access to this kind of resource is extremely useful and downright essential if you want to really speak the target language well. Indeed, while we may argue over the effectiveness of tutors, I have no doubt that the vast majority of people here at HTLAL would jump at the offer of 50 hours of private tutoring at a very affordable cost. I have never argued that it is not possible to learn a language with self-study methods. We are all doing self-study here at HTLAL. Nevertheless, I think that using the current self-study products ONLY will not produce speaking proficiency beyond the A2 level. I should remind readers that Solfrid Cristin asked, "Just out of curiosity, how many of you have learned a language to fluency using self-study only? No formal classes, no immersion?" There was just one answer. And what was the language? Esperanto. The solution is to use various tools according to our goals. Most of us have a shelf-full of learning products because each one added a little something to our toolbox. Private tutoring is just another tool. Let me quote one of my earlier posts: "Now combining a self study product with some private instruction or coaching can be a winning combination." Edited by s_allard on 14 September 2011 at 8:34pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Jeffers Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 4844 days ago 2151 posts - 3960 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Hindi, Ancient Greek, French, Sanskrit, German | Message 68 of 81 14 September 2011 at 8:52pm | IP Logged | |||||
I'm sorry, but you have been mixing things up. I am the one who took a guess and said that I thought an Assimil course would be equivalent to 50 hours of private tuition. For some, the number would be different, but there is a comparison to be made. For you, it might give the same learning as 10 hours of private instruction. Actually, I doubt you could cover all the materials in Assimil in 50 hours with a tutor. On the other hand, as you so adroitly pointed out, Assimil will not give you feedback. But you still stand to gain a lot from using Assimil, for a lot less money than the equivalent learning from a tutor. And the author I quoted in the first place doesn't like this idea. I am also guilty of starting this thread. Possibly, the title of the thread was a bit over the top; to my defense, I meant to end it with a question mark (if I remember correctly, it didn't fit). So she didn't say self-study tools are useless, she said they are a useful compliment to lessons. However, she also said, quite plainly, "You will not learn French". I don't think it is possible for her to have said it any clearer. The point is that she is selling her own private tuition, and trying to discredit all other learning methods. How-to-learn-any-language.com was founded on the principle of self study; the study tips on the main site are nothing but. I don't even think lessons or tuition are mentioned. Since self-study tools are popular here, I thought it would be interesting for people to respond to the author I quoted. Edited by Jeffers on 14 September 2011 at 8:57pm 4 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5365 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 69 of 81 15 September 2011 at 7:08am | IP Logged | |||||
I don't see what I've been mixing up here. May I point out that the author of the original quote refers to Rosetta Stone and doesn't not mention Assimil at all. People who have been around HTLAL know that there is probably a consensus here that R. S. is the worst self-study program despite all the slick marketing hype. By the same token. Assimil is considered one of the best, and I concur. Referring to R. S. for French the author is probably right in saying that you won't learn French. The wording is not the best in my opinion. I would have said: "You will not learn to speak French well." But she is fundamentally right for the reasons she gives. Assimil is of course a different kettle of fish. I do not know what the author of the quote thinks of Assimil. I would think that her opinion would be more positive since it is quite a good product and comes from France. Of course, she has her own products for sale. She believes in private tuition. Does that mean that her opinion of Rosetta Stone is incorrect? She does not say that all self-study products are bad and useless. I do not think that that one should compare any self-study program to private tutoring. They are two different learning tools. I have said it before and I'll say it again, to say that Assimil is the equivalent of X hours of private tutoring is preposterous. This is what I call mixing things up, as in the following sentence, "But you still stand to gain a lot from using Assimil, for a lot less money than the equivalent learning from a tutor." Considering all the things a tutor does under the umbrella of what I would call corrective feedback, how does Assimil provide the "equivalent learning from a tutor?" How does Assimil correct your French pronunciation and grammar? Indeed, how can Assimil correct any thing you say or write. Can you ask Assimil to explain the difference between "Nous avons déménagé" and "Nous sommes déménagés"? Assimil is an excellent program, probably the best in its category, and has withstood the test of time. But, for all the reasons I have given in previous posts, it is not simply an inexpensive equivalent of learning from a tutor. Mind you, I'm not saying that price is an indication of effectiveness. I'm saying that we should compare apples with apples and oranges with oranges. Compare Assimil to Pimsleur, Michel Thomas, Fluenz, Teach Yourself, etc. Compare private tutoring to Berlitz, classrooms, Middlebury College, immersion programs, etc. Let's look at the big question "Can you learn French from a self-study product like Assimil?" If you do only self-study and nothing else, that is without any type of immersion,corrective feedback or interaction with real speakers, my own guess is that you'll probably be able to understand some French in the spoken and written media, but you certainly not be able to speak it fluently and accurately in terms of grammar and phonology with native speakers. And forget about writing French correctly. Only the foolhardy or the blissfully ignorant would attempt to write a letter in French after following only Assimil and not have a native speaker review the letter. Again, to repeat myself ad nauseam, if you are not interested in speaking the language really well, a self-study program like Assimil is a better deal. On the other hand, if you are interested in actively using the language, by all means use Assimil but run, not walk, to a good tutor. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Jeffers Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 4844 days ago 2151 posts - 3960 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Hindi, Ancient Greek, French, Sanskrit, German | Message 70 of 81 15 September 2011 at 12:13pm | IP Logged | |||||
|
The horse is already dead.
3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| mrwarper Diglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member Spain forum_posts.asp?TID=Registered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5161 days ago 1493 posts - 2500 votes Speaks: Spanish*, EnglishC2 Studies: German, Russian, Japanese | Message 71 of 81 17 September 2011 at 8:33pm | IP Logged | |||||
But you can still flog it. OK, beat it ;) 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Andrew Coach Diglot Newbie AustraliaRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 4740 days ago 17 posts - 18 votes Speaks: English, Hungarian | Message 72 of 81 03 October 2011 at 2:56am | IP Logged | |||||
|
Resurrection time! :-) Couldn't resist.
Self Study methods fail when the learner does not get engaged. Lack of engagement is why "methods" fail. That's when learners get bored and give up. This very basic understanding is why one size fits all systems are doomed to failure for most people, except for the very highly motivated individuals who find the inner resources to push forward. Most people approach learning languages for diverse reasons, and would persist if they found an approach which engaged them...a bit like some people are "sucked in" by video games and spend endless hours playing. Wouldn't it be great if we could learn languages with such energy. Well, I believe we can, as long as we look for learning experiences which energize us, rather than drain us. 2 persons have voted this message useful |
|  | 
Printable version
|
| Copyright 2024 FX Micheloud - All rights reserved No part of this website may be copied by any means without my written authorization. |
