Turkish family of languages (Specific Languages) Language Learning Forum

Turkish family of languages
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Language Learning Forum : Specific Languages

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solka
Tetraglot
Groupie
Kazakhstan
Joined 6549 days ago
44 posts - 61 votes

Speaks: Kazakh, Russian*, Turkish, English^C2
Studies: French^B1, Japanese

Message 57 of 88

06 June 2013 at 12:59pm | IP Logged

za20 wrote:
From my experience, I can say that if two Turkic people meet and if they speak slowly
and if they use basic words, they can easily communicate, at least everyday-
conversation basic level. There is no problem. When I was in Germany, I had some Kazakh
friends from Kazakhstan who had never exposure to Turkish before, we managed to
communicate. The grammars of the Turkic Languages are almost the same. There are some
pronounciation differences, and some wocabulary differences. If we use basic
wocabulary, we can communicate.

What kind of communication did you have? When I started learning Turkish, knowing
Kazakh (intermediate level, about B2 on CEFR scale), I could understand one in 7-8
words in Turkish subtitles. My relatives, Kazakh and Turkish speaking could not really
communicate much without outside help. The thing is, there are many words that are
similar, however, many Turkish words that are similar to Kazakh ones have other
synonyms that are more widely used. One such example is the word for "dog"- the kazakh
"it" is also used in Turksh, but mostly perjoratively, or as an insult, instead of
"kopek". Also, because so many words were borrowed from Persian and Arabic in both
Kazakh and Turkish, with the Turkish Language Revolution, when Turks decided to replace
the borrowings with the "real turkish words", the languages lost some of their mutual
intelligibility.

By the way, even though the languages are not really mutually intelligible to a high
degree, the Turkish linguistic tradition calls all the Turkic languages "dialects",
similar to those of Arabic, I guess.
3 persons have voted this message useful

Chung
Diglot
Senior Member
Joined 7157 days ago
4228 posts - 8259 votes

20 sounds
Speaks: English*, French
Studies: Polish, Slovak, Uzbek, Turkish, Korean, Finnish

Message 58 of 88

06 June 2013 at 5:52pm | IP Logged

I just stumbled on an interesting page on comparative Turkic linguistics which may take a bit of the subjectivity out of this thread.

Here's a diagram that gives a very rough indication of lexical similarity within Turkic (I'd be careful in interpreting it since it relies on glottochronology, lexicostatistics and Swadesh lists)

For more interesting discussion, I'd recommend checking out “2.2 Dissimilar basic lexemes in the Turkic languages” and “2.3 The comparison of phonological and grammatical features” since they'll give some detail on differences outside lexicon.

P.S. The author of the page also makes some comments on mutual intelligibility

Darkstar. “The Turkic languages in a Nutshell” wrote:

On the mutual proximity of Turkic languages

A frequently asked question concerns the mutual intelligibility between Turkish and other Turkic languages. The question has been explored, for instance, by Talat Tekin (1979).[22] Of course, no two languages can be entirely "mutually intelligible", let alone the subjectivity of this concept, so by mutual intelligibility we understand mutual lexical proximity under standardized conditions. In any case, it turns out that Turkish is pretty much a western language and therefore is rather distant from other Turkic subgroups. Of the major Turkic languages, it exhibits close proximity only to Azeri and some of the lesser Seljuk languages (such as Gagauz, to which it is particularly close), sharing with them most grammar and vocabulary (cf., say, the relatedness between Spanish and Portuguese). There's much less mutual intelligibility with Turkmen than one could expect from their common Oghuz descent. On the other hand, Uzbek and Uyghur, despite being even further geographically, still share lots of familiar Old Turkic, Persian and Arabic words with Turkish and can be learned with some effort as any two comparale in-group languages, cf. for instance English and Danish. The intelligibility of Turkish with the languages that had limited contact with Oghuz tribes and the Perso-Arabic world, such as Kazakh and Kyrgyz, let alone the languages located east of the Irtysh River line or beyond the Altay Mountains, is extremely poor or zero. For isntance, speaking kust one of the Oghuz languages, it is hardly possible to understand anything but a few words in Kazakh or vice versa without preparation. However, many similar words and typical idioms — for instance, such as the local variants of var/bar/pur "there is" and yok/jok/s'uk "there is not", to name just one of the most frequently used ones — can be picked up even as far as Sakha and Chuvash, whereas the fundamentals of basic grammatical structure and many mophological suffixes are largely similar in all the Turkic languages.

Using the meticulous lexicostatistical study of 215-word Swadesh lists,[2] we can now make precise conclusions concerning the actual mutual proximity of the Turkic languages (see the clickable map above). Outside of (1) Chuvash and (2) Sakha, which have been notorious for centuries for their independent positions, there are several internal lexical clusters or intelligibility islands: (3) Oghuz-Seljuk, (4) Great-Steppe, (5) Altay-Khakas, (6) Tuvan, (7) Yugur (Yugur is not measured herein because of the scarcity of lexical materials but it is clearly different), although (3a) Turkmen and (4a) Karachay-Balkar likewise seem to be rather detached from the rest.

Note that in real speech, the value for the subjective intelligibility will normally be much lower than the figures in the map obtained for the standardized lexical lists. For instance, 50% in the diagram will approach zero in a real idiomatic fluent speech of a native speaker, because of many additional effects. On the other hand, the abundance of shared Arabic, Persian or Russian borrowings will contribute to the intelligibility in formal speech even between distant languages.

Edited by Chung on 06 June 2013 at 6:01pm
6 persons have voted this message useful

za20
Newbie
Germany
Joined 4198 days ago
35 posts - 64 votes

Speaks: English

Message 59 of 88

06 June 2013 at 11:03pm | IP Logged

solka wrote:

What kind of communication did you have? When I started learning Turkish, knowing Kazakh (intermediate level, about B2 on CEFR scale), I could understand one in 7-8 words in Turkish subtitles. My relatives, Kazakh and Turkish speaking could not really communicate much without outside help. The thing is, there are many words that are similar, however, many Turkish words that are similar to Kazakh ones have other synonyms that are more widely used. One such example is the word for "dog"- the kazakh "it" is also used in Turksh, but mostly perjoratively, or as an insult, instead of "kopek". Also, because so many words were borrowed from Persian and Arabic in both Kazakh and Turkish, with the Turkish Language Revolution, when Turks decided to replace the borrowings with the "real turkish words", the languages lost some of their mutual intelligibility.
By the way, even though the languages are not really mutually intelligible to a high
degree, the Turkish linguistic tradition calls all the Turkic languages "dialects",
similar to those of Arabic, I guess.

As far as I understood, your native language is not Kazakh. If your native language was Kazakh, you would not have so much difficulty learning Turkish.
1 person has voted this message useful

Jarel
Diglot
Groupie
Turkey
Joined 4327 days ago
57 posts - 77 votes

Speaks: Turkish*, English
Studies: Italian, German

Message 60 of 88

07 June 2013 at 7:44am | IP Logged

@Chung
My personal experience in conversational street language approves that diagram. Thanks for the link, seems rather interesting.
2 persons have voted this message useful

!LH@N
Triglot
Senior Member
Germany
Joined 6822 days ago
487 posts - 531 votes

Speaks: German, Turkish*, English
Studies: Serbo-Croatian, Spanish

Message 61 of 88

07 June 2013 at 2:39pm | IP Logged

za20 wrote:

As far as I understood, your native language is not Kazakh. If your native language was Kazakh, you would not have so much difficulty learning Turkish.

I don't want to be rude, or start a fight...but I call this bullshit.
I think you are grossly overestimating it. I have yet to meet ANYBODY who can speak Turkish and can "easily" pick up Kazakh.

Maybe you are just some language genius and this doesn't apply to you, but from my experience any meaningful conversation can not be held without preparation and hard study. Yes, you can talk with a Kazakh when you speak Turkish, but your communication will be at the level of a three-year-old. (but again, all my experience, I might be dealing with a language genius after all...)

Cheers,
Ilhan
6 persons have voted this message useful

solka
Tetraglot
Groupie
Kazakhstan
Joined 6549 days ago
44 posts - 61 votes

Speaks: Kazakh, Russian*, Turkish, English^C2
Studies: French^B1, Japanese

Message 62 of 88

07 June 2013 at 3:32pm | IP Logged

za20 wrote:

As far as I understood, your native language is not Kazakh. If your native language was
Kazakh, you would not have so much difficulty learning Turkish.

Well, yes, Kazakh is not my native language, although it is my "mother tongue" :) I
learned it when I was about 8 with my family, and my listening and reading were much
better than speaking and writing.
Even this little knowledge has helped me greatly in learning Turkish. However, as far as
I know, even the native Kazakh speakers have to spend one year in prep classes before
going on to study in Turkish in Kazakh-Turkish schools. The same is true in the other
direction: I haven't met many Turkish people who can understand news or other TV
programmes in Kazakh well (not just a word here and there, or the gist of conversation).
3 persons have voted this message useful

za20
Newbie
Germany
Joined 4198 days ago
35 posts - 64 votes

Speaks: English

Message 63 of 88

07 June 2013 at 9:19pm | IP Logged

!LH@N wrote:

Hey, don't be so rude. what is your problem with Turkish ? If your native language is Turkish, then have a look at this link for Kazakh Grammar. How can NOT you understand this Kazakh language, if your native language is Turkish ?

This is a Kazakh Grammar book, if you know Cyrillic Alphabet, you can easily understand Kazakh, if you don't understand it, it means that you don't know Turkish well.

And finally, you should respect all opinions, even if you don't like it. If you don't know Turkish well, go learn Turkish first, then speak here. Don't insult any opinion and don't insult anyone.

Here is the link for Kazakh Grammar:

http://kts.es/Enlightened-Mans/Language/Kazakh/Kazakh%20-%20 Language%20Competencies%20for%20Peace%20Corps%20Volunteers%2 0in%20Kazakhstan.pdf
1 person has voted this message useful

!LH@N
Triglot
Senior Member
Germany
Joined 6822 days ago
487 posts - 531 votes

Speaks: German, Turkish*, English
Studies: Serbo-Croatian, Spanish

Message 64 of 88

08 June 2013 at 9:31am | IP Logged

za20 wrote:

I don't have a problem with Turkish, it is beautiful, I love it.
However, I know that a language is not made up of only grammar. In spoken speech there is the major influence of pronunciation, idioms and vocabulary.

Quote:

This is a Kazakh Grammar book, if you know Cyrillic Alphabet, you can easily understand Kazakh, if you don't understand it, it means that you don't know Turkish well.

I think we have different definitions of what "easy" means.
When you suggest, that somebody who knows good Turkish can learn Kazakh like a breeze than I am of the opinion that this is just not true. Let alone the subtle differences in grammar (as I think Chung has said before, the devil is in the detail), the pronunciation will throw any uneducated ear off quickly.

Can a Turk have baby-talk with a native Kazakh speaker? Sure, why not. But I doubt that that will hardly qualify as meaningful communication.

But yes, all this is my opinion.
When I was a teenager I also thought that I just have to listen and my Turkic blood will make me understand.
It is not so, I am afraid.

Cheers,
Ilhan

8 persons have voted this message useful

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