|
 |
Future outlook: French vs. Portuguese | ||
Share with:
| ||
 Language Learning Forum : General discussion |  | |
| Opensecret Triglot Newbie United States Joined 4693 days ago 20 posts - 30 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish, French Studies: Russian, Mandarin | Message 49 of 81 24 January 2012 at 6:41am | IP Logged | |||||||||||
|
As an outsider looking in -- an Anglophone who came to Portuguese after studying Latin, French, Spanish and Italian (in that order)-- Brasilian and European Portuguese look like two dialects but one language to me. I tested this belief by going to Google News this evening, and choosing the news story that appeared at the top of the page for Portugal and for Brazil. Here they are:
From Portugal: ´ O economista Daniel Bessa, ex-ministro da economia de Guterres e um apoiante de Cavaco Silva reconhece que o Presidente da República não esteve bem nas declarações feitas na sexta-feira quando admitiu que as reformas não chegam para as despesas que tem ..” From Brasilia: O ministro da Fazenda, Guido Mantega, disse que, para a economia brasileira atingir um crescimento entre 4% e 5% neste ano, será necessário aumentar o crédito de 15% a 17% e reduzir o custo dos financiamentos. Mantega fez uma análise do ... I know these passages would sound different if spoken by Brazilian and continental speakers, but I notice they both start with the same word ("O") that I had never seen in a Romance language before Portutuese (after le, el and il, o felt like an intriguing novelty to me, prompting the question what these people had against the letter L). In terms of grammar and vocabulary, they both look like Portugese to me. I can read them both without difficulty, and I'd guess that the same would be true for any literate citizen on either side of the pond. I'm aware that the everyday spoken languages are probably farther apart than journalese, but I wonder if you have to be an insider and know your way around both dialects very well before you'd start to think of them as different languages. 3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| Acut Tetraglot Groupie Brazil Joined 4701 days ago 53 posts - 101 votes  Speaks: Portuguese*, English, Spanish, French | Message 50 of 81 24 January 2012 at 6:47am | IP Logged | |||||||||||
|
Oh, it took so long for me to write the previous post that others got ahead and posted before me LOL!
@Luso: Indeed, there is indeed mutual intelligibility between the two varieties of Portuguese - although this varies depending on the speaker's accents and linguistic competence. But as I've said in my post above (the one I was writing when you posted yours!), many Romantic languages tend to share mutual intelligibility. The degree to which one understands the other depends more on the time gone since those languages began diverging. It doesn't mean we speak the same language. Sure, I may have a bit of difficulty understanding the Brazilian accent from the Northeast (I'm from the South). But people in the Brazilian Northeast and South use very similar vocabulary and, most importantly, their grammar/syntax is pretty much the same. I stand corrected on Angola's economic prospects. But still, only about 50% of the population is a native Portuguese speaker. So it counts less for the European Portuguese variety. The major differences I would list are: In syntax/grammar: * Use of gerunds, which are more common in Br-Pt. * Use of "enclise" which is more common in Eu-Pt. Br-Pt uses almost solely "proclise". It's a major word-order difference. If I'm not mistaken "mesoclise" is dying everywhere, but it seems to be more resistant in Portugal (Luso may correct me on this one). * Different uses of prepositions. * Use of "tu" (informal "you"). Even Brazilian speakers that may use "tu" in most informal situations make the agreement with "ele" - which is considered a mistake in written language, but abounds in the spoken variety. Where I live, the use of "tu" may be taken as offensive, and good old grandma would reprehend me if I dared to use it to anyone. In many cases, "tu" is substituted for "você", even in informal/affective contexts. In culture: Brazil received so many immigrants (plus the native's influences) that it's culture is unique. I would be amazed if I met a Portuguese who prays for the orixas, practices capoeira for a sport and knows how to prepare a feijoada. Or if he listened to forró, funk and samba. But I would be appalled if he drinks caipirinha on the weekends, is able to tell me the story of boi tatá, has heard of Santo Daime, prefers Queijo de Minas over the other types of cheese, had a Pitanga tree in his backyard when he was a child, has read Machado de Assis, listens to Bossa Nova and still tried to convinced me he has no Brazilian acquaintances! Cultural interactions are few, as I mentioned in my last post. I must admit I can not remember the last time I watched a Portuguese movie. But I don't watch movies that often, so I may not count. Literary exchanges occur, but some translation may be necessary. In vocabulary: Not minding some minor differences I would expect from any language that has a hundreds of millions of speakers but which are annoying and may harm comprehension(e.g. xícara/chávena), I notice the following: * Brazilian Portuguese and European Portuguese differ on a number of technology and science-related vocabulary (I gave examples in my last post). It's the most in your face evidence of divergence that happens in our times. If one thinks the two varieties haven't split yet, one should take into consideration it will be impossible for them to walk together in the XXI century if those differences accumulate. * A number of words related to particularities of Brazil (I gave many examples under "Culture"). And, of course, Portugal's particularities, but I don't think Luso would help me with that one LOL. Petega, pitanga, candomblé, axé, quitute, berimbau etc. * A number of loanwords from the natives and slaves and which DO NOT refer to their specific needs or habits, and thus do not represent a difference in culture, but pure vocab differences (I guess I could phrase this better, but look at the examples jururu = triste = sad , catapora = varicela = small pox, pindaíba = pobreza (pop) = poverty (pop) and the same applies for banguela, capenga, caxumba, moleque). Those words do not make reference to a cultural fact that would be unique to Brazil. In pronunciation * Accents aside, Portugal suffered a lot more influence of French into its phonology and rhythm (elimination of the vowels that are not tonic, for instance) * Nasal sounds are more evident in Brazilian Portuguese. * Some words retained a more traditional pronunciation in Portuguese (actor, for instance, but there are many others and they have been a point of disagreement in the unification of spellings). * Some ó/o, é/e contrasts. * Pronouncing "à" Last, but not least: * Ironically, I support the unification of spellings. Again, I would be in favor of a greater exchange of culture and information between Brazil and Portugal. I think everyone would profit from a unification, although I think it should be a spontaneous one (it would be spontaneous on my part!). But stubborn grammarians and that little "pond" of salt water that some call the Atlantic Ocean (=D) are on the way. And I don't think either will move in the foreseeable future. * I'm only one among millions of Brazilians. I guess most Brazilians would still consider the two varieties as one and the same language - even if they are left wondering what "ficheiro" and "ecran" are when using any computer software. Edited by Acut on 24 January 2012 at 6:47am 5 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| Acut Tetraglot Groupie Brazil Joined 4701 days ago 53 posts - 101 votes Speaks: Portuguese*, English, Spanish, French | Message 51 of 81 24 January 2012 at 7:10am | IP Logged | |||||||||||
@Opensecret: You just gave me a fabulous opportunity to show how Br-Pt and Eu-Pt differ. I will highlight the parts a native speaker of Br-Pt would word differently:
We have here a difference in vocab (first bold) and two differences in wording/usage (second and third bolds). If Br-Pt and Eu-Pt differ that much in the writing, in which many syntax patterns "forcefully imported" from Portugal are used (which makes Br-Pt and Eu-Pt more similar in the writing), one can imagine how much the two languages differ in the speech. I understood perfectly what the paragraph is telling me. But I would never write it that way. Again, and this is the main point I want to get across here in this forum, similarity and mutual intelligibility do not imply unity . (phew! This was a short post! I guess one can read this post as "The Cliff's Notes for what I have said before). Edited by Acut on 24 January 2012 at 7:17am 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6598 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 52 of 81 24 January 2012 at 7:44am | IP Logged | |||||||||||
|
I'll simply agree with those that said the difference is far smaller than between any two Romance languages I have experience with. Though frankly speaking I'm not sure how well I'd understand the colloquial speech if I went to Brazil.
But I follow a lot of twitter accounts in Portuguese and I'm really never consciously aware whether I'm reading a Brazilian or European Portuguese account. Or also another example: I mostly use an Oxford English-Brazilian Portuguese dictionary. Every now and then some European words aren't there, but really the only problem (in the beginning) has been the transcription. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| Camundonguinho Triglot Senior Member Brazil Joined 4750 days ago 273 posts - 500 votes Speaks: Portuguese*, English, Spanish Studies: Swedish | Message 53 of 81 24 January 2012 at 11:44am | IP Logged | |||||||||||
|
Quem conhecê você?
means 1. Whom do you know? in Portugal 2. Who knows you? in Brazil (Whom do you know we say: Quem você conhece? no inversion possible in questions with transitive verbs). Prepositions are different too chegar EM casa in Brazil, chegar A casa in Portugal (arrive home) participar DE in Brazil, participar EM in Portugal (to take part in) chocolate AO leite in Brazil, chocolate DE leite in Portugal (milk chocolate) chamar você DE bobo in Brazil (direct object+DE), chamar-lhe parvo (indirect object() in Portugal (to call someone stupid) Galves, a French linguist has spent 20 years in both Portugal and Brazil and she said ''spoken Brazilian Portuguese and spoken Continental Portuguese have two distinct/separate grammars''. They are just too many things that are ungrammatical in Portugal but grammatical in Brazil, as O PNEU FUROU, and vice versa: ''Cuidem dos vossos filhos'' ungrammatical in Brazil, but normal/general in Portugal/ It is in syntax where colloquial/spoken/mesolectal variants of Brazilian and Continental Portuguese differ most. And syntax is the essence of a language, not vocabulary, not morphology, not phonology. ''ENSAIOS SOBRE AS GRAMÁTICAS DO PORTUGUÊS, de Charlotte Maria Chambelland Galves. Campinas, SP, Ed. da UNICAMP, 2001. 280p. Francesa, nascida em Dijon, na Borgonha, a autora aprendeu português em Portugal e vive no Brasil desde 1977, sendo professora na UNICAMP desde 1985. Em 11 artigos mostra que não se pode falar numa só gramática abrangendo a língua falada no Brasil e em Portugal. Apresenta a diferença e explicita as gramáticas que a produzem, quer no português europeu moderno, no português brasileiro e no português clássico.'' further reading Clitic-placement in the history of Brazilian Portuguese: a case of three-grammar competition http://www.univ.trieste.it/digs9/pdf/carneiro&galves.pdf Mary A. Kato (Campinas) Generative grammar and variation theory: a happy marriage in the description of Brazilian Portuguese http://web.fu-berlin.de/phin/phin36/p36t2.htm A unity of Portuguese is maintained on the basis of lies. In Brazilian schools we learn ''The normal position of clitics is after the verb (enclisis)'', but it is just one of these lies. I never ever say: CHAMO-ME, PASSE-ME, VER-TE, only ME CHAMO, ME PASSE, TE VER. Brazilian Portuguese is a diglossic language, with formal written norm being so distant in time and space (it's 19th century Portuguese with modern spelling). That's why many people say ''Portuguese is the most difficult language in the world. We Brazilians can't speak Portuguese''. Maybe because we should not strive to do it at all. We should speak the way we speak, not the way Portuguese writers of the 19th century wrote. So, we have this diglossia. Czech has diglossia too, but it's intrinsic, it has nothing to do with another country. Imagine a situation in which American 6th graders are required to write essays in the way 19th century British authors wrote (for example Dickens or Austen) and where their normal spoken variant is labeled as incorrect all the time. It's frustrating! Portuguese is the most hated subject in Brazilian schools, which is rare. In a recent survey, most pupils in other countries liked their native tongue, and did not like mathematics. But, in Brazil mathematics was preferred to Portuguese. I wish one day we could write the way we speak: SE EU VER ELA and not SE EU A VIR ME CHAMO and not CHAMO-ME TEM MUITAS COISAS LEGAIS and not HÁ MUITAS COISAS LEGAIS PODERIA SE DIZER and not PODER-SE-IA DIZER CHEGOU NO RIO and not CHEGOU AO RIO I am giving you examples from normal middle class educated speech, in rural dialects differences are greater (like FALARO instead of FALARAM and NÓS VAI instead of A GENTE VAI). So, I wouldn't recommend you that you learn Brazilian Portuguese if you're not verty interested in sociolinguistics, diglossia and similar topics. In English, you can get away without using formal forms like WHOM or IT IS I. Brazilian society is still in the 19th century when written language is concerned, but the spoken language changed drastically over last 250 years. So, you are always confronted with two forms, and this can be tedious to learners: My name is... Me chamo...(spoken) Chamo-me (written) I arrive in Rio Chego no Rio (spoken) Chego ao Rio (written) If I see her, I will tell it to her Vou falar isso pra ela, se eu ver ela. (spoken) Dir-lhe-ei, se a vir. (written). So, I am sorry to say, but I would advise you against learning Brazilian Portuguese, unless you're a hardcore diglossia freak, and like diglossic languages like Czech, or Arabic or Tamil. Spanish is much easier, with no diglossia, and it is widely understood by us Brazilians. Our society is divided between rich and poor, and our language is divided between modern 21th century spoken Brazilian and 19th century written Portuguese. Every year, there are affairs when professors try to use Brazilian vernacular with pupils. From the grade 1, we are required to sound like this: IT IS I WHOM YOU SHALL MARRY (I am using an English phrase just to get the idea how our formal language sounds even to us). It's not that rich people speak any differently than the people in favelas. We all say VI ELE and not VI-O (for I saw him). Even our professors speak in Brazilian vernacular when they explain us 19th century rules like ''the normal position of clitics is after the verb: CHAMO-ME'' Google more on diglossia in Brazil preconceito lingüístico Mário Perini Marcos Bagno Português ou Brasileiro? livro escolar ''Por uma Vida Melhor'' ''nós pega peixe'' For your own good, stay away from this mess. ;) So, my vote here goes to French, or shall I say: my recommendations: for sociolinguists: Brazilian Portuguese for any other person: French or Spanish Passar bem. ;) PS This is no recent ''problem''. Even our Modernist writers pointed out the problem of diglossia. Read Mário de Andrade (and his novel Macunaíma) for more details. Edited by Camundonguinho on 24 January 2012 at 12:30pm 7 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| Luso Hexaglot Senior Member Portugal Joined 6062 days ago 819 posts - 1812 votes Speaks: Portuguese*, French, EnglishC2, GermanB1, Italian, Spanish Studies: Sanskrit, Arabic (classical) | Message 54 of 81 25 January 2012 at 5:36am | IP Logged | |||||||||||
|
@ Acut, Camundonguinho: I read your posts thoroughly and I agree about the differences you state (overall, at least). Nevertheless, I believe the global question is whether such differences constitute ground solid enough to say we are talking about two different languages. I doubt it, but that's just my opinion.
I'll just add some remarks. Please bear in mind that the examples I'm about to use are ment to be understood by other non Lusophone forum members. After all, if i were to reply only to you both, I'd do it in Portuguese. I'm sure we'd all understand each other. ;) Here are the remarks: 1. @ Acut: you state that sometimes you have a bit of difficulty some Brazilian accent; we over here have a lot of difficulty understanding some accents, namely a few from the Azores, or from Madeira. 2. @ Acut: we use gerunds also, but not as much as you do, I'll give you that: you'd say "eu estava fazendo", whereas I'd say "eu estava a fazer". 3. Most Portuguese persons don't use clitics well. It's one of the language's most frequent sources of errors. Many persons aren't able to say simple things like "I put it here" ("eu pu-lo aqui") or "I did it like this" ("eu fi-lo assim"). They invent strange versions I'd not dare to write here. And yes, mesoclitics are mandatory in some cases: to say "I'd do it", I'd say "eu fá-lo-ia". 4.
You mean "feijoada à brasileira", of course. "Feijoada" is a typical dish in some regions of Portugal. Not your kind, which I know and enjoy from time to time, but "feijoada", nevertheless. Notwithstanding beans being from the Americas, as far as I know. 5.
If it's like that (I'm not doubting), I agree it's illogical. But only in Brazil. In Portugal, we speak the language that's taught in school (well, for the most part, at least). Whenever you have an argument about language use, you can pick a grammar and look it up. That doesn't mean we speak 19th century Portuguese, of course. For instance, during the last few years we've had a lot of influx: all the people that came from our former colonies (in 1974-1975) brought a huge diversity to our way of saying things. And of course, the telenovelas, starting with Gabriela, more than 30 years ago. One small example: in the seventies, it would be unusual to ask someone "tudo bem?" as a greeting; now, it's commonplace. Edited by Luso on 25 January 2012 at 5:54am 3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6598 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 55 of 81 25 January 2012 at 6:44am | IP Logged | |||||||||||
Anyway, it's just your personal opinion that syntax is what matters most. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| aodhanc Diglot Groupie Iceland Joined 6261 days ago 92 posts - 130 votes Speaks: English*, FrenchB2 Studies: Spanish | Message 56 of 81 25 January 2012 at 1:28pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
|
I think the thread has gone slightly off-topic, becoming more of a discussion between
European and Brazilian Portuguese. To revert to the main subject, regarding which will be more useful in the future - French or Portuguese? I'd still say French, although Portuguese will continue to grow, due to Brazil's development and also due to the language's growth in the African Portuguese- speaking countries. There, Portuguese is already becoming the native language in large cities such as Luanda, Maputo, Bissau. But because of the prestige, historical weight and importance, economic influence as well as perceived status, French will have the upper hand. Cities such as Paris, Brussels, Geneva, Luxembourg, Montréal are all major economic and financial centres in the world. French will continue to grow in Africa, and is already becoming the native language for many in capital cities such as Dakar, Abidjan, Kinshasa, Yaoundé etc. 1 person has voted this message useful |
|  | 
Printable version
|
| Copyright 2024 FX Micheloud - All rights reserved No part of this website may be copied by any means without my written authorization. |
