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Mooby’s Polish Slog - Team Żubr - TAC2012 | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Language Learning Log |  | |
| tozick Diglot Groupie Poland Joined 6360 days ago 44 posts - 69 votes  Speaks: Polish*, English | Message 65 of 108 20 June 2012 at 6:35pm | IP Logged |
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5. 'Go upstairs!' (a command focusing on the immediate act of moving, go, get a move on! As this action is not usually frequent or everyday, it has to be DETERMINATE but using the imperfective aspect) = Idź do góry! or just a straight Idź!. Verb used is 'Iść'
'Idź do góry' would mean something along the lines of 'Go upwards'. That should be 'Idź na górę!'. I've been thinking about the difference for about 10 minutes now and I think it comes down to a relatively simple thing. If you know where you're headed, as is the case with 'go upstairs' (it's quite clear what/where the upstairs is) you will say 'Idź na górę'. On the other hand you will use 'Idź do góry' if you don't really know where you're going, for example if you're in a tunnel and one way leads upwards and the other one downwards and you wanted the person to take the former you'd say 'Idź do góry'. Another example that I came up with is one of movement in 2d computer games where you can either go 'do góry/w dół/w lewo/w prawo' (up/down/left/right). But yeah, to simplify: go upstairs = idź na górę / go upwards = idź do góry 7. 'Let's go!' (there are two common ways of expressing this in Polish) = Chodźmy! a more suggestive polite way of saying this. Idziemy! is more insistent, like you've said 'chodźmy' a few times already and now you're getting impatient. As regards 'chodźmy/idziemy', while it's correct I'd just stress that I'd probably never use 'idziemy' speaking to anyone 'equal'. When I think about it the most obvious context(s) for 'idziemy' would be: a policeman saying this to someone he's just arrested; or, another one, a parent saying that to a child. When it comes to using that with friends I think I'd only say that in a slightly different way, namely, as a question 'To co, idziemy?' or 'No to idziemy, czy nie?' (roughly 'So, are we going or what?) 6. 'I'm going to school' (again the focus is on the act of moving, not the destination. Imagine a narky teenager saying to his nagging mum 'alright, alright I'm going to school' So although going to school is usually a regular act implying the need for the indterminate, in this example we need the DETERMINATE but using the imperfective aspect) = Idę do szkoły. Notice that idę (present tense) is used even though strictly speaking the action is still in the future. This is because the act is imminent, the very near future. Verb used is 'Iść' And lastly, use of the present tense to talk about future actions. I have no idea what the actual rules are here, but you surely should not be surprised to hear people talk about future using the present tense. And it doesn't really have to be imminent. I've just tested it on my dad and he didn't pick on my saying 'Za pięć lat idę do szkoły', at least not initially. Personally, I wouldn't give it a second thought if I heard someone saying, e.g. 'W przyszłym roku jadę do Grecji' (which coincidentally could be translated as 'Next year I'm going to Greece'). I don't really disagree here with anything, just saying that we do use a lot of present tense. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |
| Mooby Senior Member Scotland Joined 6103 days ago 707 posts - 1220 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Polish | Message 66 of 108 26 June 2012 at 8:17pm | IP Logged |
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Cześć Tozick, bardzo dziękuję za pomoc.
Anki = 2824 Hours studied: 15 (Total: 329) I visited the Polish shop in my nearby town with Dorota today. I chatted away in pidgin Polish trying to concentrate on my driving and grammar at the same time. We bought a few things for a children's party, and I picked up some of their nice Polish bread for myself. I couldn't resist getting a pack of Krówki (fudge) as well. Ok, let's be honest, I also bought some kind of biscuits with jam inside, a few slices of ham and a tub of serek twarogowy (cottage cheese). Should make a decent sandwich. I managed to communicate sufficiently well with the shop keeper, and even manged to crack a few jokes without offending anyone. Verb 1. Cont.... to go (by foot) / to walk Chodzić - Iść - Pójść I asked Dorota to help me construct a few sentences using this verb-group to indicate the FUTURE action. Here's what we came up with: 1). I'm going to the cinema this evening = Dzisiaj wieczorem idę do kina. Again the present tense is used for a future action, which is common as Tozick mentioned. Although, I'm only just beginning to appreciate this. In English, we explicitly use tenses that mean a future action (I will, I am going to, I will be, I will have been etc.). Maybe because of verb aspects, in Polish we can choose a verb in it's present tense to mean some future action. So in this verb-group, as soon as we use Idę it's like the action has already started (in our minds at least, if not in real time). It's a definite, certain intention. Also, if a time period ('this evening', 'tomorrow..') is used in the sentence it qualifies the use of the present tense to mean a future action. Here's a couple more examples to illustrate this: 2) I'm going to the cinema next week = Idę do kina w przyszłym tygodniu.. A definite intention, plus a time clause (next week) so the present tense qualifies. 3) I'm going to the cinema = Idę do kina. No time clause specified here, so it means that I'm going to the cinema now; I'm walking along the pavement and on my way there as I say this. 4) I might go to the cinema tomorrow = Może pójdę do kina jutro. Even though there's a time clause used (tomorrow) the word 'might' indicates that the action remains just a possibility, something still very much in the future to be decided upon later. So we use pójdę for this. I haven't studied the verbs of motion using textbooks yet, so the above reflects only my current understanding. I'm sure there are much better ways of explaining it, and in more depth. I bought Iść czy Jechać? a few weeks ago, and I'll get round to working through it as soon as possible. Words of the Week Jękczeć / Jęknąć = 'to groan', 'to moan' e.g he groaned with pain [Jęknął z bólu] Jęk noun = ' a groan' 'moan' Chichotać / Zachichotać = 'to giggle' e.g I'm giggling like a fool [Chichoczę jak głupiec] Chichot noun = 'a giggle' or 'a chuckle' Brzmieć imperf. = 'to sound' e.g that sounds like an explosion [Brzmi to jak wybuch] Pyzaty = 'chubby', 'pudgy' e.g a baby's face. Ślina = 'saliva', 'spit' The above selection of words were gleaned from Kot w Butach (Puss in Boots), the children's fairystory. Edited by Mooby on 27 June 2012 at 7:09pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| Zireael Triglot Senior Member Poland Joined 4649 days ago 518 posts - 636 votes Speaks: Polish*, EnglishB2, Spanish Studies: German, Sign Language, Tok Pisin, Arabic (Yemeni), Old English | Message 67 of 108 27 June 2012 at 7:44pm | IP Logged |
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'Jękczeć' should be spelled 'jęczeć' (i.e. no "k"). The "k"->"cz" change is due to palatalization, as an "e" follows.
Otherwise, your Polish is getting better and better. If you need to chat, just drop me a PM and we could chat via PM. 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| Mooby Senior Member Scotland Joined 6103 days ago 707 posts - 1220 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Polish | Message 68 of 108 05 July 2012 at 12:53pm | IP Logged |
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Thanks Zireael.
Anki = 2844 Hours studied = 12 (Total: 341) Another slow week with not much done. I had builders in my house for much of the time which made studying difficult. At least that's my excuse, but I think I may be going through temporary burn out. The Anki reviews are getting long and tedious and whilst vocabulary and reading comprehension are improving, grammar competency isn't. I've already talked about grammar drills but I've just not done enough. On a more positive note; I am speaking more fluently and confidently. And that's the result of just 2 conversations a week. I'm thoroughly enjoying poems by Wisława Szymborska, whom I mentioned a while ago. Profound, witty, real; her poetry is engaging. Here's another example entitled "FOUR IN THE MORNING": Czwarta nad ranem Godzina z nocy na dzień. Godzina z boku na bok. Godzina dla trzydziestoletnich. Godzina uprzątnięta pod kogutów pianie. Godzina, kiedy ziemia zapiera nas. Godzina, kiedy wieje od wygasłych gwiazd. Godzina a-czy-po-nas-nic-nie-pozostanie. Godzina pusta. Głucha, czcza. Dno wszystkich innych godzin. Nikomu nie jest dobrze o czwartej nad ranem. Jeśli mrówkom jest dobrze o czwartej nad ranem - pogratulujmy mrówkom. I niech przyjdzie piąta, o ile mamy dalej żyć. Words of the Week Kruchy - 'fragile', 'brittle' e.g ice. Also means 'crumbly' e.g tarts and cakes etc. Mech - 'moss'. [Which is the plant invading my lawn at the moment] Zdradzać -'to betray' e.g his face betrayed everything [Jego mina zdradziła wszystko] Pęd - 'dash', 'rush', 'stampede'. Also means 'a sprout' referring to plants. W te pędy! - 'On the double!' It's occurred to me that I may exhibiting typical Bison behaviour. This is taken from Wikipedia: "Wallowing is a common behavior of bison. A bison wallow is a shallow depression in the soil, either wet or dry. Bison roll in these depressions, covering themselves with mud or dust." Ok, maybe not the mud and dust, but it sure feels like my progress with Polish is 'wallowing in a shallow depression'. I send a bovine bellow of encourgement to my fellow bisons 2 persons have voted this message useful | |
| Mooby Senior Member Scotland Joined 6103 days ago 707 posts - 1220 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Polish | Message 69 of 108 14 August 2012 at 11:09pm | IP Logged |
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Anki = 2902
Hours Studied = 29 (Total: 370) What a poor few weeks I've had! And now the momentum has slipped, it's a struggle to get back to where I was. I'm still Anki-ing along and reading a bit at bedtime with occasional listening practice. It's not that I've completely lost interest, but more a case of poor routine and self-discipline. I had an encouraging conversation with Grażyna today who said that my speaking had improved. I managed to talk for about 50 minutes on food, dieting, friends and television. I didn't struggle with pronunciation or a lack of vocabulary, and my grammar had improved a little. It must be painful for Grażyna to watch me though! I'm thinking so hard to construct sentences that my face contorts and I have to stare at something behind her (rather than look in her eyes) lest I lose cocentration. Words of the Week(s) Wosk - 'wax' Siniak - 'bruise' Posiniaczony- 'bruised' adj. or 'covered in bruises' (the body, not fruit etc.) Podnosić Imp. - 'to raise' (e.g an arm) + 'to lift' + 'to pick up' (e.g toys) ...and finally my favourite: Błoto - 'mud'. One of the first words all young bisons learn! Edited by Mooby on 14 August 2012 at 11:11pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |
 meramarina Diglot Moderator United States Joined 5965 days ago 1341 posts - 2303 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish Studies: German, Italian, French Personal Language Map | Message 70 of 108 15 August 2012 at 5:12am | IP Logged |
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I'm so glad to see that you enjoy Wisława Szymborska's poems! I love them. And I've recently discoverd many videos on YouTube that are recordings of her reading her own work, with Polish transcriptions for the poor hapless learner. She has a clear and lovely voice. I study some pronunciation, that way, repeating after her.
I was so sad to hear of her passing a few months ago. That line about how ants may or may not feel at four in the morning is one of my favorites. I was planning to cite one of her readings for my next post to my log. The post will eventually appear (really!), I've just been neglecting my bison duties, unfortunately - not totally, but I have too many languages now and maybe I should have waited to start this one. But when I hear this fine and very wise lady speak her lines in the original language, I'm motivated all over again. She had a great and generous spirit, and quite a good sense of humor, too! The transcript here helps me a lot, too! Symborska tells a joke 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| Vos Diglot Senior Member Australia Joined 5564 days ago 766 posts - 1020 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish Studies: Dutch, Polish | Message 71 of 108 15 August 2012 at 9:26am | IP Logged |
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Keep at it you two!! I know, I'm hardly one to talk, but I appear to have fallen into the same trap as you Meramarina,
being absolutely charmed, intrigued and smitten with Polish yet not having the adequate time to follow up on it, amongst my other languages, uni and life in general. Yet it remains there looming on the horizon for when the time is right. Mooby, your the most solid and consistent out of all of us and it's great to see someone continually making steps with Polish. So back on your horse, get those books open and gain that momentum again. You'll definitely be thanking yourself for doing so in a year from now when your reading Polish novels, conversing with ease with your Polish friends and enjoying more and more of Polish culture due to your understanding of the language. Can't wait to be at that level myself! By the way 370 hours of study for 7 months is pretty good work, that's almost 2 hours a day, everyday. Nice work. p.s. Just watched that clip you posted of Szymborska Meramarina. So lovely! So much warmth, spirit and clarity in her. She seems like someone who really knew how to enjoy life, knew what was worth spending one's days with. Thanks for sharing. Edited by Vos on 15 August 2012 at 9:37am 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| Mooby Senior Member Scotland Joined 6103 days ago 707 posts - 1220 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Polish | Message 72 of 108 16 August 2012 at 10:28pm | IP Logged |
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Thanks Meramarina and Vos, glad to bump into a couple of bisons on this ogromna równina (vast plain).
I'm steadily acquiring vocabulary which is greatly improving my reading, and a very rewarding activity in itself. Sometimes new words have a simple and direct equivalent in English and it takes a minute or two to learn. On the other hand... ...I just spent a whole hour teasing out the meanings of one verb (or verb pair to include the imperfective and perfective): Odkładać / Odłożyć the '-kładać' / 'łożyć' suffix indicates it's a verb concerned with placement. In this case it means: 1. 'To PUT OFF' (postpone / delay) Example: Dlaczego odkładasz na później ważne sprawy? > 'Why are you putting off the important things for later?' 2. 'To PUT ASIDE (lay aside / set aside) Example: Odłożył na emeryturę $100,000 > 'He put aside $100,000 for his retirement.' 3. To PUT BACK (put down) Example: Odłożyła książkę na półkę > 'She put the book back on the shelf.' Also means to HANG UP (the phone) among others. I did a thorough search of Google to get a good range of sentences. And I could have spent another hour sifting through other subtle shades of definition, but I'm learning not to get side tracked by the minor details. Hopefully, exposure over time will cement and enhance what I need to know. I usually find verbs take the longest to get to grips with. I'm looking forward to Saturday. One of my students, Irena, is coming to cook pierogies for me. Smacznego! Edited by Mooby on 16 August 2012 at 10:30pm 1 person has voted this message useful |
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