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Reading TL May Delay Fluency | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : General discussion |  | |
| LaughingChimp Senior Member Czech Republic Joined 4700 days ago 346 posts - 594 votes  Speaks: Czech* | Message 57 of 73 22 January 2012 at 4:08pm | IP Logged | |||||
But is it even necessary? If some word is pronounced lets say /ənɛ/, is it really necessary to know that people think it's supposed to be /əndɛ/? So it's a matter of point of view - you consider knowing how it's supposed to sound basic and knowing how it really sounds advanced knowlege, while I consider the normal pronunciation basic knowledge and the "correct" version advanced knowledge. It's more practical, because you can recognize and correctly pronounce the word even without knowing how people think it should sound, but if you know only how people think it's supposed to sound, that's useless. Also, I think you exagerrate the effect of "motherese". It's a small fraction of what children hear and it often contains lisp and other "cute" features. When we take the example non word above, right now children would be most likely learning it as /ənɛ/. That's how language change occurs largerly unnoticed. Children copy the actual pronunciation and memorize the word as /ənɛ/. Both adults and children pronounce /ənɛ/, but children hear /ənɛ/ while adults hear /əndɛ/.
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| atama warui Triglot Senior Member Japan Joined 4702 days ago 594 posts - 985 votes Speaks: German*, English, Japanese | Message 58 of 73 22 January 2012 at 4:50pm | IP Logged | |||||
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Pronunciation changes are not just random sound changes. They're usually making it easier to utter something fast. Like へ sometimes becomes べ in Japanese, when preceeded by certain sounds. This is the first aspect, the "tonal shape" of terms.
When spoken quickly, sounds are being swallowed, but there's no standard to it. Look at how many different "versions" of "going to" exist. It's not important to know that it's supposed to be written that way when you hear "gonna" or "gunna", or even "i'mma" under certain circumstances, but it'll be useful to have it as reference, right? In this case, it's also a grammar point. Plus, there do exist people who pronunce every word precisely (atleast when they have to). Actors, for example, or anyone working for the news on TV or radio, receive special education. When I listen to Japanese songs, they're often sung in overly correct pronunciation, making them a bad example to train off.. I think every version of a word has to be learned, as a subset of "the original", which needs to be as precise as possible. Edited by atama warui on 22 January 2012 at 4:53pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6598 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 59 of 73 22 January 2012 at 6:18pm | IP Logged | |||||
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| Balliballi Groupie Korea, SouthRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 4693 days ago 70 posts - 115 votes Studies: Korean | Message 60 of 73 22 January 2012 at 9:12pm | IP Logged | |||||
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With regards to immersion, considering how fast DDD workers in Korea and other immigrants who open their own small businesses (snack food shops, groceries) become fluent (some are fluent in less than a year), I am tempted to take up a similar job as these people. For example, working in a factory for a year may be more effective than spending a year in language classes in an institute. Not only do you not pay fees, you earn money.
Another idea is to apply for a job at a regular coffee shop as a barista. Or even open one's own small business although that would require much capital and would be very risky. I would of course supplement the immersion with learning from books. These things are the same as the concept of working holidays abroad. Many Koreans flock to Australia when they are young to participate in the working holiday program. Their main purpose most times is to learn English. When they come back after a year, their fluency has increased astronomically. Some are almost like native speakers. I doubt I will actually do this - it's just an idea I've been floating around in my head for some time. The idea was born out of frustration in not being able to find opportunities to immerse myself in Korean. If I were an advanced speaker, things would be easier but for a beginner, not many Koreans want to talk in Korean with a person struggling to speak in Korean. So it's a catch-22 situation. I don't like attending classes either because I usually find my pace and areas of knowledge and gaps in knowledge are different to other students. It's boring to sit through a class where you already know the grammar construction that's being taught and yet you aren't good enough to attend a higher-level class. Having someone speak in Korean is good but often the teachers are good English speakers and will spend most of the time speaking in English explaining things. I just never have been a classroom person and prefer to study on my own. It would be great if Korea instituted a program like the working holiday program where people from overseas can work at all kinds of jobs in Korea for a time without worrying about visa restrictions. An innovative recruitment company could start something like this, matching up Korean companies with foreigners who just want to work for a short time - 6 months or a year at some light laboring or service jobs. It can be like an internship so the employers do not have to pay the foreigner much in compensation for hiring someone who cannot speak Korean. There would be an understanding that the job is only short-term. Knowing Koreans and the craze they have for learning English, they would probably turn such a program into an opportunity for Koreans to get free English lessons from the foreigner. Edited by Balliballi on 22 January 2012 at 9:15pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Jeffers Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 4910 days ago 2151 posts - 3960 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Hindi, Ancient Greek, French, Sanskrit, German | Message 61 of 73 22 January 2012 at 11:02pm | IP Logged | |||||
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My brother spent a summer working in a sauerkraut and pickle factory in Germany when he was 16. Now he's an exec at Lufthansa. For your information, he had studied German for three years before that summer, and was a good student. I'm pretty sure that sort of immersion does wonders, if you can manage it, but you probably need a decent foundation to build on.
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| Jarvis1000 Diglot Groupie United States want2speakthai.com Joined 4889 days ago 74 posts - 101 votes Speaks: English*, Thai Studies: Spanish | Message 62 of 73 23 January 2012 at 12:18am | IP Logged | |||||
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Here is my Two cents on all of this. Take it for what its worth. There are 4 key dividable skills in language, Speaking, Listening, Reading and Writing. They are all seperate skills and I think they should be emphasized seperatly.
Its kinda like exercising, If you want to be generally fit then you work out with weights with aerobic exercising, you do crunches and so on. You do lots of different things to make you overal fit. If you want to be a sprinter though, you emphasize those skills that you a better sprinter and not those that would benefit a shot put thrower. Yes doing exercises from any of these categories would make you more fit, if you emphasize something that you don't particularly need, it will feel like a waste of time. So yes practicing from any of the 4 skills can and probably will help the others. Depending on your language experiences and natural abilities, you may even be able to emphasize on method and have it pull all three of the other skills along with it. The point I am making is that you shouldn't ignore one or emphasize one to the extreme and then think it is odd that your skill is lacking in an area. 4 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
 Iversen Super Polyglot Moderator Denmark berejst.dk Joined 6704 days ago 9078 posts - 16473 votes Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian Personal Language Map | Message 63 of 73 23 January 2012 at 3:19pm | IP Logged | |||||
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to Clumsy and Serpent (two pages back): it is actually "inggeris" in Bahasa Malaysia, but "inggris" in Indonesian.
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| LaughingChimp Senior Member Czech Republic Joined 4700 days ago 346 posts - 594 votes Speaks: Czech* | Message 64 of 73 23 January 2012 at 8:35pm | IP Logged | |||||
Possibly. However, if you don't know the contracted version, you won't be able to have a conversation at all. 1 person has voted this message useful |
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