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ungoo
Bilingual Pentaglot
Senior Member
Taiwan
Joined 5464 days ago
22 posts - 25 votes
Speaks: English, Mandarin*, Taiwanese*, Cantonese, French
Studies: German
| Message 57 of 83 25 April 2012 at 4:27am | IP Logged |
Hi tmp,
My office blocked the access to the effortlessenglishpage.com, I'll check it tonight after work.
Here are the summary of the 7 regles from www.francaisauthentique.com for your info, I'm sure there should be some overlapping concepts:
1. You need to listen to a lot of French that you understand.
2. Listen to the samething number of times (10 ~ 30 times), even if you have completely undetrstanded it, and if it seems simple to you. Idea is to internalize and grill it into your brain and force your brain to think in French, without translation.
3. You need to practice at least 30 minutes per day. Johan suggests listening during your "dead time", that is, the time during the day when you are doing something without thinking. (washing dishes, commuting to work, cooking, eating, etc.)
4. Don't stress yourself and embrace the spirit of Kaizen: try to improve a bit each day.
5. Use stories. The stories allows you to practice repetition without boring yourself.
6. Use the context to understand better: try to use the context of a story to understand the meaning of a word you don't understand.
7. Listen only to authentic material.
Other do's and don'ts...
Don'ts:
Don't study textbooks
Don't do exercises
Don't try to understand the grammar
Don't allow negative emotions...
Do's
Listen to a lot of French
Listen to the same thing number of times
Practice during your dead time
Learn a bit more each day
Learn by listening to stories
Learn by contexts
2 persons have voted this message useful
| ungoo
Bilingual Pentaglot
Senior Member
Taiwan
Joined 5464 days ago
22 posts - 25 votes
Speaks: English, Mandarin*, Taiwanese*, Cantonese, French
Studies: German
| Message 58 of 83 25 April 2012 at 4:51am | IP Logged |
These just reminds me of a book in Taiwan that my wife told me about (she's trying to learn English) called "千萬別學英文" (Translate: Never Study English, I think there is only Chinese version, so anyone who could read Chinese can give it a look, it's short and a quick read I heard).
Anyways, I didn't read it but my wife told me about the general idea: don't study grammar, and just listen listen listen, to the same thing until you dream of it... I add that dream part myself, but I think that's the point.
1 person has voted this message useful
| tmp011007
Diglot
Senior Member
Congo
Joined 6069 days ago
199 posts - 346 votes 
Speaks: Spanish*, English
Studies: French, Portuguese
| Message 59 of 83 25 April 2012 at 5:57am | IP Logged |
ungoo wrote:
Here are the summary of the 7 regles from www.francaisauthentique.com for your info, I'm sure there should be some overlapping concepts:
1. You need to listen to a lot of French that you understand.
2. Listen to the samething number of times (10 ~ 30 times), even if you have completely undetrstanded it, and if it seems simple to you. Idea is to internalize and grill it into your brain and force your brain to think in French, without translation.
3. You need to practice at least 30 minutes per day. Johan suggests listening during your "dead time", that is, the time during the day when you are doing something without thinking. (washing dishes, commuting to work, cooking, eating, etc.)
4. Don't stress yourself and embrace the spirit of Kaizen: try to improve a bit each day.
5. Use stories. The stories allows you to practice repetition without boring yourself.
6. Use the context to understand better: try to use the context of a story to understand the meaning of a word you don't understand.
7. Listen only to authentic material.
Other do's and don'ts...
Don'ts:
Don't study textbooks
Don't do exercises
Don't try to understand the grammar
Don't allow negative emotions...
Do's
Listen to a lot of French
Listen to the same thing number of times
Practice during your dead time
Learn a bit more each day
Learn by listening to stories
Learn by contexts |
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Seven Rules - A.J. Hoge from http://consejoidioma.blogspot.com/ wrote:
1. Always Study and Review Phrases, Not Individual Words
you must change the way you study English. Your first action is to stop studying English words. What? Stop studying English words. That's right, do not memorize words. Native speakers do not learn English by remembering single words. Native speakers learn phrases. Phrases are GROUPS of words that naturally go together.
Research by Dr. James Asher proves that learning with phrases is 4-5 times faster than studying individual words. Also, students who learn phrases have much better grammar.Never study a single, individual word.
When you find a new word, always write down The Phrase it is in. When you review, always review all of the phrase,.. not the word. Collect phrases. Your speaking and grammar will improve 4-5 times faster. Never again study a single word. Never write a single word in your notebook, always write the complete phrase. Learn Phrases Only.
2. Don't Study Grammar
Stop studying grammar. Right now. Stop. Put away your grammar books and textbooks. Grammar rules teach you to think about English, you want to speak automatically-- without thinking!
3. The Most Important Rule: Listen First
You must listen to UNDERSTANDABLE English. You must listen to English EVERYDAY. Don't read textbooks. Listen to English. Its simple. That is the key to your English success. Stop reading textbooks. Start listening everyday. Learn With Your Ears, Not Your Eyes. In most schools, you learn English with your eyes. You read textbooks. You study grammar rules. Spend most of your study time listening- that is the key to great speaking.
4. Slow, Deep Learning Is Best
The secret to speaking easily is to learn every word & phrase DEEPLY. Its not enough to know a definition. Its not enough to remember for a test. You must put the word deep into your brain.To speak English easily, you must repeat each lesson many times. How do you learn deeply? Easy- just repeat all lessons or listening many times. For example, if you have an audio book, listen to the first chapter 30 times before you go to the second chapter. You could listen to the first chapter 3 times each day, for 10 days.
5. Use Point Of View Mini-Stories
"How can I learn English grammar if I don'tstudy English grammar rules?"You must learn grammar by listening to real English. The best way is to listen to the same story... told in different times (points of view): Past, Perfect, Present, Future. How do you do this? Easy! Find a story or article in the present tense. Then ask your native speaker tutor to write it again in the Past, with Perfect tenses, and in the Future. Finally, ask him to read and record these stories for you. Then you can listen to stories with many different kinds of grammar. You don't need to know the grammar rules. Just listen to the Point of View stories and you will improve grammar automatically! You can also find Point of View lessons and use them to learn grammar automatically.
6. Use Only Real English Lessons & Materials
Something is wrong with the schools you went to, and the textbooks you used. English textbooks and audio tapes are horrible. You never learned REAL English. You learned TEXTBOOK English. To learn real English, you must listen to English that native speakers listen to. You must watch what they watch. You must read what they read. How do you learn Real English? It's easy. Stop using textbooks. Instead, listen only to real English movies, TV shows, audio books, audio articles, stories, and talk radio shows. Use real English materials.
7. Listen and Answer, not Listen and Repeat
Most English CDs use "listen and repeat". The speaker says something in English, and you repeat exactly what they said. This method is a failure. "listen and repeat" is not enough-- when you repeat, you only copy the speaker. But when you hear a question and you ANSWER it-- you must think in English.
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you are right. they're not exactly the same but there are too many overlapping concepts..
btw, about that "千萬別學英文" book 我汉语说的不好 but 谢谢！
3 persons have voted this message useful
| ungoo
Bilingual Pentaglot
Senior Member
Taiwan
Joined 5464 days ago
22 posts - 25 votes
Speaks: English, Mandarin*, Taiwanese*, Cantonese, French
Studies: German
| Message 60 of 83 25 April 2012 at 6:43am | IP Logged |
Yap, did you have any sucess stories with repeat listening for your target language? Not 1k times, but perhaps after 30 times for an audio for a period of time, I wonder if it'll really make you think in the target language...
And since Francais Authentique is written entirely in French for French learners, and Effortless English entirely in English for English learners, I assume some very basic knowledge of target language is required to start with this approach...
no worries about the book, i'm sure it's just more or less the samething. Btw, it's wonderfull already that you can type short Chinese phrases.
1 person has voted this message useful
| slucido
Bilingual Diglot
Senior Member
Spain
https://goo.gl/126Yv
Joined 6675 days ago
1296 posts - 1781 votes
4 sounds
Speaks: Spanish*, Catalan*
Studies: English
| Message 61 of 83 25 April 2012 at 5:02pm | IP Logged |
I disagree with these "don'ts" rules.
I think that textbooks, exercises, grammar and negative emotions...have it place in language learning. It depends on what you need at any stage.
3 persons have voted this message useful
| carlonove
Senior Member
United States
Joined 5986 days ago
145 posts - 253 votes
Speaks: English*
Studies: Italian
| Message 62 of 83 26 April 2012 at 4:27am | IP Logged |
druckfehler wrote:
I can translate it, but I'm not sure this actually works very
well, because depending on context some of the used connectors have different
translations in German or there are slight grammatical changes depending on the
context. How did other translators deal with these things?
I'll give you a couple of examples:
"Once upon a time" is usually translated as "Es war einmal", which is the standard
formula in fairytales. This is followed by a noun in singular. If it is followed by two
nouns, as in "Once upon a time, there lived a king and a queen", it becomes "Es waren
einmal". With people, however, it doesn't quite work. A less strained translation in
this case is "es ereignete sich einmal, dass". When used casually it could require the
same translation as "long ago", namely "vor langer Zeit". So which of these would you
want to learn?
In many other cases there is more than one way to translate the connectors used in
the English text. The most straight-forward translation of "in the beginning" is
uundoubtedly "am Anfang", but you could just as well use "anfänglich" or "zu Beginn".
Word order can also change, depending on the other parts of the sentence. "Without
question that is an exaggeration" translates to "Ohne Frage ist dies eine
Übertreibung", but if you only wanted to use "that is an exaggeration" you would have
so say "dies ist eine Übertreibung". The position in the sentence can also depend on
the presence or absence of other parts of the sentence.
What if the position in the sentence is different in German? Would you want it to be
strictly parallel to the English (sounding clumsy or worse) or at the position it would
naturally take in the German sentence?
The sentences I used as examples and their German translation:
Once upon a time, long ago, people developed languages.
Es ereignete sich einmal, vor langer Zeit, dass die Menschen Sprachen entwickelten.
Understandably, in the beginning, speech was simple but nonetheless essential.
Verständlicherweise war die Sprache am Anfang einfach, aber dennoch unentbehrlich.
Without question, that is an exaggeration because, in no case is it one hundred percent
true.
Ohne Frage ist dies eine Übertreibung, denn in keinem Fall ist es zu hundert Prozent
wahr. |
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If you're still willing to translate the passage, I would say to err on the side of
"most authentic" or colloquial German, as Tommus said. The point of the exercise is
ultimately to aid fluency, so it makes sense to use the forms that are most common in
the spoken, everyday language. It shouldn't be too difficult for most people to figure
out a change in position in the sentence or grammatical points like es waren/war, and
people who would be confused should probably use more beginner-level techniques.
2 persons have voted this message useful
| FuroraCeltica
Triglot
Senior Member
United Kingdom
Joined 6865 days ago
1187 posts - 1427 votes
Speaks: English*, Spanish, French
| Message 63 of 83 26 April 2012 at 4:34pm | IP Logged |
tractor wrote:
Splog wrote:
My question, then, is ... have any of you folks tried
this 1000+ repetitions approach, and if so,
why? In addition, are there any studies on this and the effectiveness of the approach?
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I know that I'd be bored to death if I tried. |
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I agree. No one is going to learn a language by boring themself to death.
1 person has voted this message useful
| en.fr.es
Triglot
Newbie
United Kingdom
Joined 4605 days ago
15 posts - 22 votes
Speaks: English*, Spanish, French
| Message 64 of 83 26 April 2012 at 7:29pm | IP Logged |
Does any have any success with retaining vocab with this technique?
Recently I have been listening to a lot of French podcasts (sports and comedy) and when I
hear an expression that I am unfamiliar with I look up the expression (for example last
night I came across the expressions "il mouille la chemise" and "prendre une valise") and
then put the section of the podcast (usually about 30 seconds to include a sentence or
two either side of the expression) on repeat to really commit it to memory. It seems to
be working at the moment does anyone else use a similar technique?
I obviously won't listen to an expression or sentence 1000 times but maybe 20 or 30.
1 person has voted this message useful
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