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We, who manage to focus on ONE language | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : General discussion |  | |
| casamata Senior Member Joined 4260 days ago 237 posts - 377 votes  Studies: Portuguese | Message 89 of 142 22 August 2013 at 11:53pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
So the main topic could evolve into asking, "Is it better for most people to spend their finite time on a select few languages until they reach advanced levels or a level in which they don't have to study. Conversely, should they try to reach a level in many languages in which they will have to refresh their knowledge by studying grammar and "warming up" before speaking?" Obviously it depends on each person, but on a wider-scale would it benefit the majority to do breadth or depth in terms of social, economic, and other utilities? Edit: Obviously, I stand in the quality corner. But I don't believe in extremes like spending 2 hours a week working with speech pathologists to get a "perfect" accent when you are easily understood by natives and nonnatives. My personal goal isn't ever to be mistaken for a native speaker; it just won't happen. But my goal is to know *almost* all the terms I know in medicine in Spanish, which is going to be hard since there are thousands and thousands of diagnoses. The problem is that it is so easy to forget terms, like I used to know almost all the bones in the body in Spanish but I forgot. (I'm referring to things like the 8 carpal bones and not basic things like femur and tibia) Edited by casamata on 23 August 2013 at 12:00am 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| JC_Identity Triglot Groupie Sweden thelawofidentity.comRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 4119 days ago 53 posts - 108 votes Speaks: Swedish, Serbo-Croatian*, English | Message 90 of 142 23 August 2013 at 12:00am | IP Logged | |||||||||||
This is great because what I have been talking about is the opposite of pushing yourself. I have condemned self-discipline in favor of self-interest. I respect your decision to move slowly, but majority of people tend to want the most efficient approach if all other factors are equal or if they are even better with the faster approach. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| grunts67 Diglot Senior Member CanadaRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5300 days ago 215 posts - 252 votes Speaks: French*, English Studies: Spanish, Russian | Message 91 of 142 23 August 2013 at 1:08am | IP Logged | |||||||||||
I don't think there is a good answer on that subject. I think it really depend on the goals of each individuals. Also, in term of benefices, social, economic, and other utilities to take your words, it's depend of the goals and others factors proper to each individual. For business in one particular country, one may find that achieving and maintaining a near native fluency is more advantageous. Same thing could apply to a scholar or someone really interested in a particular region. On the others hand, learning multiple language to a let's say A2-B1 level would be more appropriate to somebody who want to have multiple interactions with different persons speaking different languages on a regular basis. Again, it's a matter of goals and personal preference. I do want to learn more than 1 languages. Nevertheless, I want a high degree of proficiency in all of them (B2+). Why ? I like to be able to express myself with precise terms. I REALLY dislike not being able to say what I really want to say. In other words, I want meaningful conversations (like Steve Kaufman often say). Also, I'm really stress when I speak a foreign language which hinder my progress (I'm working on that). Having a better working knowledge of the language decrease that stress. As you can see, I'm more into the quality corner but for a different reason. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| kujichagulia Senior Member Japan Joined 4845 days ago 1031 posts - 1571 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Japanese, Portuguese | Message 92 of 142 23 August 2013 at 2:12am | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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@JC Identity - You talk about how the key to studying a language all day and focusing on one language is to find materials that you enjoy, activities that you would do in your native language, and finding comprehensible input.
But what if there is nothing that interests a person at his/her level? I really want to learn Japanese, in order to communicate with people here in Japan and to function as a member of society here in my city. But it is really difficult for me to find materials that I like that are comprehensible. For example, a lot of people learn Japanese by reading comic books. I really can't stand comic books, and I wouldn't even read them in English. I do have some comic books, but it's more like I'm forcing myself to read them, solely because they are somewhat comprehensible, not because I enjoy reading comic books. I can't stand Japanese pop music. I find it to be of low quality. I know that there are other types of music out there in Japanese, but it can be really difficult to find because the media here tends to focus on pop music. Some people have helped me, but I haven't found anything I really like. And I really don't listen to music because of the lyrics anyway - no matter the language. I can't stand Japanese TV dramas and movies. I don't find them captivating like I would certain American dramas and movies, or even some from other countries. Or it could just be that they are too incomprehensible, and maybe I would like them if I had more vocabulary. Maybe if I understood the jokes and idioms, they would be fascinating. But what to do until then? I do like sports. I read a lot about sports in English, and when I was back in the U.S. I used to watch a lot of sports. But for my level of Japanese, it is out of the question to watch sports or read sports in Japanese right now. It would be incomprehensible. I don't read fiction in English anymore. I tend to read things like biographies. But those are waaaay over my level in Japanese. There is no "Simple Japanese" Wikipedia like there is for English. Anyway, I want to be able to communicate with people, talk to people about a variety of subjects, read the newspaper or watch the news on TV to get the day's news, watch sports, etc. And I really don't want to watch a lot of dramas or movies, or read comic books, or listen to a lot of uninteresting music just to get to that point. So what do I do, so that I can do those things? I study. I do courses, and I look up vocabulary words and grammar, and try to study those, and do shadowing and/or listening/repeating, etc. with the hope that one day I will be able to talk to people on a variety of subjects and read the newspaper, and watch the news comfortably. Moreover, the only materials that are available in both L1 and L2, and have audio, tend to be either fiction or non-fiction and/or news articles that are at an advanced level. So if you are not interested in fiction and are at a beginning/intermediate level, it doesn't really work for you. Edited by kujichagulia on 23 August 2013 at 2:16am 5 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| Darklight1216 Diglot Senior Member United StatesRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5098 days ago 411 posts - 639 votes Speaks: English*, French Studies: German | Message 93 of 142 23 August 2013 at 4:40am | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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Have you tried talking to people? Even at a very low level, conversing is still possible to
some degree. It sounds like communicating is your thing so you might want to get aquainted with itaalki and shared talk if you havn't already. I don't really know anything about Japanese learning materials, but if there are "slow Japanese" news programs or something, that might be something to consider. It sounds as though graded readers might not interest, but if you have not tried them, you might to at least give it a shot. Personally, I would probably choose a language that has content which actually interests me, but then again I don't live there. Maybe I just read the post too quickly, but did you neglect to mention anime? Edited by Darklight1216 on 23 August 2013 at 4:43am 3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| kujichagulia Senior Member Japan Joined 4845 days ago 1031 posts - 1571 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Japanese, Portuguese | Message 94 of 142 23 August 2013 at 5:17am | IP Logged | |||||||||||
I talk to people in Japanese at least a few minutes every day. I'm surrounded by native Japanese speakers at work, in my condominium building and at the gym, so communicating is no problem. If I could solely learn Japanese just by talking to people, that would be great, but that doesn't work. I have to get the grammar and vocabulary study in there, and I have to do activities at my own pace sometimes. When talking with people here in Japan, three things are likely to happen: (1) They "dumb down" their conversation to something more of my level. (2) They switch to English. (3) They find a way out of the conversation and leave.
There is a website called NHK Easy News that I often frequent. They write one or two articles per day in easier Japanese (mid- to high-intermediate level), and they even provide audio and some explanations (in Japanese) for more difficult terms. That is the only slow news website for Japanese that I could find, but it works well and I like it. As for graded readers, one company has a monopoly on Japanese graded readers, and they only have a few, and they are ridiculously expensive, so I stay clear of those. I envy people who study English, for example, because there is a plethora of graded English readers out there at reasonable prices.
I agree with you completely, but life doesn't always work out that way. Sometimes you have to learn a language because you need to, not because you want to.
Ah, for me, anime is worse than manga. The exceptions are the anime that feature regular people doing regular things in regular life. I watch two anime every Sunday evening on Japanese TV: Chibi-Maruko and Sazae-san. Those two shows are great insights into Japanese life and Japanese culutre, plus the Japanese is easy enough for me to follow the storylines. The best part is that there are no robots, fairies or monsters, nor any of that strange anime-like Japanese that nobody in real life speaks. I honestly enjoy those two anime. But that is just one hour on Sunday evenings. What to do about the rest of the week? Edited by kujichagulia on 23 August 2013 at 5:22am 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| iguanamon Pentaglot Senior Member Virgin Islands Speaks: Ladino Joined 5260 days ago 2241 posts - 6731 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish, Portuguese, Haitian Creole, Creole (French) | Message 95 of 142 23 August 2013 at 5:25am | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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Kuji makes some very good points. It is difficult to take full advantage of native materials if one doesn't like a lot of the culture's output. Japan is a radically different society in many ways but there are also many commonalities we all share on a human level. I can't see the point in anime or manga, so, I doubt I would rely heavily on their use. Still, I would make it a point to use it to some extent if it were comprehensible and readily accessible, no matter how much I hated it. For me, I'd rather endure the pain of literature or cartoons I don't enjoy than to have to endure the pain and stress of not being able to communicate as well as I would like, but I have a quite high pain tolerance level when there's something I want.
I listened to NHK World's Portuguese broadcasts of news and culture from and primarily about Japan to help me with Portuguese listening. Really, I'm not that interested in the Sumo wrestling scandals or the yen-dollar exchange rate, or how many becquerels of radiation are escaping from Fukushima 1, but for a 10-15 minute newscast, I can deal with it and did and do everyday because it has taught me vocabulary, grammar and listening in a way I can't get elsewhere. Obviously, NHK is just one of the sources I use. I have also found podcasts and books I quite like- some of which I didn't know I liked until I gave them a chance. For example, I love the "Gabriela" novela and "chick-lit" by Carina Rissi (I'm a guy). Both have been great for learning colloquial and regional Portuguese, yes, but I quite enjoy them on their own merit and never thought I would until I gave it a chance. Emk had a great deal of success with his French by using "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" DVD's. "Buffy" is definitely not a French series so there's little in context cultural learning happening , but it has the advantage of being available in English, culturally accessible for an American. He also read about kayaking in French and now he says that he knows more terminology about the sport in French than he does in English. Of course there must be other popular American TV series you like. Hollywood films dubbed or subbed in Japanese, books about your interests written natively or translated available. There might also be the possibility and the ability to make a bilingual text. You're already living the culture, it's the language/vocabulary you need. You can get a lot of that language from translated (if they're good translations) American content. I never recommend this for most learners but in your case I'll make an exception, you are immersed in an intimate way with Japanese in your personal and professional life, living in Japan and with a Japanese wife. Biographies- you mentioned before that Malcolm X is one of your favorite films. The Autobiography of Malcolm X- Japanese translation is available on Amazon for paying shipping and handling. It might take a heck of a lot of time to get through the first chapter, or even the first page, but you'd have the assistance of an English text, a film with Japanese and English subtitles, maybe a dubbed version, and familiarity with the story. For Haitian Creole, there was and isn't a lot of literature (native or translated) or films available. I used what I could- "by any means necessary" including a comic book about cholera, a book of medical phrases for foreign doctors, a pamphlet for elementary students about a raindrop's voyage through the water cycle and the Everglades, interviews with voudou houngans, The Bible, sustainable agriculture and even a pamphlet from Massachusetts about trash recycling and the schools handbook- not because I love all that, but because I knew it would help me to learn the language. When I learned the language to a high enough level to talk to people, I could and can speak about a wide range of topics and had/have a fairly diverse vocabulary for someone at an intermediate level- I've still got a lot to learn. We are all different. What I can tolerate for the sake of language learning may be radically different from others. I often think that we focus too much on liking and enjoying aspects of language learning. The rationale being that "if you don't like it you won't learn" or "it must be fun". While I agree with that statement to some extent I think an exception can be carved out as long as there is something you enjoy- that doesn't necessarily mean the native content. I compromise by keeping what I don't like short. In my case, I care most about learning the language so I can talk to people- if a pamphlet about trash recycling helps me to do that, I'll do it! Learning to speak and use the language is what's fun for me. I keep my eyes on the prize. Edited by iguanamon on 23 August 2013 at 5:34am 6 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| kujichagulia Senior Member Japan Joined 4845 days ago 1031 posts - 1571 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Japanese, Portuguese | Message 96 of 142 23 August 2013 at 5:57am | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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@iguanamon - Thank you for your reply. As always, you are a great voice of reason.
Yeah, learning to speak Japanese and using Japanese is what's fun for me, too. My best moments using Japanese have been when I've been able to talk about things that I already have the vocabulary and grammar for, and talk at some length, with other people. That's what I want to do all the time. But to get to that point, I have to get the vocabulary and grammar into active use. How do I do that? I have to do the things I don't necessarily consider fun. I said that I don't like reading fiction. But the language in fiction books is easier than that of, say, biographies. So right now I'm working through a Japanese novel written in language just above my level. I'm reading it somewhat half-intensely, looking up maybe five words a page and trying to learn those words. I'm not reading the novel because I really really want to read that novel. I'm reading it to learn Japanese. I'm doing something I don't particularly like to do, but I'm doing it so that I can do the things that I do want to do. I said that I don't like Japanese pop music that much, but I do often have FM radio on at home when I'm doing chores, etc. I hear a lot of J-pop and I know a lot of singers and bands - useful information for incorporating into my high school English lessons. Teenagers love that stuff! And I do pick up some useful vocabulary and phrases almost by accident by just having the radio on. Does that mean I like listening to J-pop? No. Will I listen to it to improve my Japanese? Hell yes. But there is only so much of it I can take every day. You won't find me listening to it all day like Khatzumoto did. I guess his threshold is a lot higher than mine. I've made a lot of progress in Japanese over the last year or so, even though I study Japanese roughly 90 minutes a day and get passive listening/TV in for additional time, and even though I study Portuguese on the side. So I don't think that I'm a failure for doing what I've been doing. Sure, if I had something that I could truly enjoy doing in Japanese, I could do it all day. In lieu of that, I do things that I can tolerate doing, and yeah, there is a daily threshold for that. But I don't necessarily think it's a bad thing. 3 persons have voted this message useful |
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