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A dead honest language CV... | ||
Tags: Curriculum Vitae (CV) | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : General discussion |  | |
 Iversen Super Polyglot Moderator Denmark berejst.dk Joined 6705 days ago 9078 posts - 16473 votes  Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian Personal Language Map | Message 41 of 104 03 November 2013 at 9:38am | IP Logged | |||||
OK, let me give a concrete example. I have actually put C1 as my level in spoken High German, but at the same time I know that there is one thing which still needs some work, namely the genders of substantives - that's why I put the disclaimer "(grammatical errors, but fluent)". The one and only formulation about grammar in the section on C1 in the framework is the following: "I can consistently maintain a high degree of grammatical accuracy ; errors are rare and difficult to spot.". So if I know that the problem is there (and I have actually taken steps to solve it), but I am fluent enough to avoid problematic words (or put them in the plural) I can maintain a fairly high degree of grammatical accuracy. And this is actually permitted: "I can substitute an equivalent term for a word I can’t recall without distracting the listener.". Even at the C2 level there are things you can do better, mostly concerning vocabulary, style and idioms, but also things relating to dialects and other variants which even native speakers rarely master - like names of public institutions outside your own country. Or the Danish word for the CEFR tests - I have never needed such a word because I only discuss it here at HTLAL. So I could even give my level in my native Danish as C2 with a disclaimer that I don't know everything about Danish yet. Edited by Iversen on 04 November 2013 at 2:36pm 9 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Julie Heptaglot Senior Member PolandRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 6905 days ago 1251 posts - 1733 votes 5 sounds Speaks: Polish*, EnglishB2, GermanC2, SpanishB2, Dutch, Swedish, French | Message 42 of 104 03 November 2013 at 3:20pm | IP Logged | |||||
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Going back to the original topic...
Dead honest? OK, here it comes: German: C2 - MA in German, lots of native exposure (but no longer stays in the German-speaking environment). I understand pretty much everything on TV/in podcasts and read "Die Zeit" with ease (I do miss some words here and there but in most situations I can understand their meaning based on the context). I have a very good accent and I am pretty often mistaken for a native speaker. My active vocabulary could be much better, though, and I usually need at least 30 minutes to reach my optimal speaking level. And I am not exactly happy with my writing... being a perfectionist, I double-check a lot if I want to write a correct text. English: C1/C1+? - the CAE (C1) tests were pretty easy for me 5-8 years ago, and I have improved a lot ever since. My listening comprehension is very good but clearly better for American than for British English, and dialects/fast speech with lots of idioms might be very tricky. Generally, I read with ease but I would probably struggle to read high quality literature due to the lack of this kind of English reading experience. I speak English pretty well and more and more people are telling me I have a very good accent - which is not yet the case, though. (Dead) honestly speaking ;), my English accent is probably my biggest language-related complex. Writing is my weakest skill in English - I stopped learning about text forms, paragraph types etc. sometime before reaching B2. I feel insecure about my writing (e.g. articles, prepositions and the general question "does it sound good in English"), and if I really need to write a correct text (I write in English both for professional and academic use), I spend a lot time googling words and phrases, using dictionaries etc. To improve my English quickly and effectively I would probably need a boost I could get from spending a couple of months in an English-speaking country or talking to English native speakers on a regular basis (I've never done either of those, I've never even been to an English-speaking country). So, dear employer, please send me abroad and I will come back with much better skills :) French: my French learning story is a long one, with many turning points, a textbook example of a post-bad-teacher trauma, numerous moments of despair and, luckily, some moments of pride and joy. It is also a good example for a large difference between passive (receptive) and active skills. Right now, my reading and listening comprehension are both good: very good (let's say, 95%) for news, press, radio podcasts on science/business/culture targeted at general audiences, clearly worse for colloquial speech and movies. As far as speaking is concerned, I can usually communicate whatever I want, just not in the optimal error-free way :). I make lots of grammar mistakes (articles, prepositions, all the little function words... and tenses... my use of subjunctive is a mess). I've never learned the grammar properly and I will probably do it at some point. My writing is a disaster, I suppose - I hardly ever write anything and keep it that way. No idea what my CEFR level would be. Spanish: B2+ in the past, dormant these days. Still able to order a hotel room on the phone with very complex reservation details (and get the right room upon arrival :)). Give me two days in Spain and I'll be able to hold decent conversation on A2+ level (tested), give me two weeks and I should be a competent B1 speaker, give me about two months (not necessarily in a Spanish-speaking country) and I should get back to B2... My passive skills decreased as well, not so much in terms of the difficulty level of the texts I can read but in terms of the effort I have to put into reading. The same is true for the listening comprehension (the decrease is a bit more significant, though). Swedish: A2... hopefully. One year of pretty intensive learning under my belt (formal education mostly), huge decrease in active skills over the summer, wouldn't be able to perform some of the usual A2 dialogue tasks but can (try to) talk in Swedish about morphology or post-war literature... (yeah, benefits of university studies...). Supposedly a very good accent (for a beginner, at least). Listening/watching movies is still frustrating if no Swedish subtitles are available.. I am not accustomed to the rythm of speech yet. Dutch: Over the years I dabbled in it two times for a few weeks, and have been studying it seriously for a month now. A1 level in speaking and writing and progressing really fast :). My comprehension (especially in reading) is well beyond the usual A1 scope, thanks to the previous studies and fluency in German. Icelandic: one semester of formal classes (Old Icelandic), another semester in progress + some autonomous learning (with a touch of Modern Icelandic). Some reading skills, vocabulary and grammar knowledge. Basic knowledge of Modern Icelandic pronunciation. Never really tried speaking :) Languages which I studied (more or less) seriously for at least a year but have hardly any active skills now: Russian, Czech, Italian - I understand them to some extent (and better than e.g. a Polish native speaker with no Russian learning experience), I am usually able to perform reading and listening comprehension test tasks on A2 or even B1 level (tried a few times). I guess Latin also fits into this category but I haven't tried reading it for quite a long time. Languages which I've never studied / hardly ever studied and yet understand them to some extent (thanks to the knowledge of other languages): Portuguese (in reading), Ukrainian, Slovak, Norwegian. Languages which I dabbled in for a while (but longer than for three days ;)) and postponed to some distant future (no real skills, just the knowledge of some interesting linguistic facts, plus I should progress faster if I go on with my studies): Arabic (MSA) and Irish. Special case: Swiss German. Two semesters spent in Switzerland (but with limited Swiss German exposure), one semester of a university class in Swiss German listening comprehension (great fun!), some self-learning. Hardly any exposure to the written language (understandable :)), no active skills whatsoever (does "Grüezi" count?). Listening comprehension probably somewhere around B1 level... little problems with slow and clear speech but as Swiss people say sometimes, "you don't speak Swiss German slowly". And obviously... my native Polish. Edited by Julie on 03 November 2013 at 3:26pm 5 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| montmorency Diglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 4830 days ago 2371 posts - 3676 votes Speaks: English*, German Studies: Danish, Welsh | Message 43 of 104 03 November 2013 at 3:46pm | IP Logged | |||||
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@Julie: If you have any weaknesses in written English, they don't show up here.
Excellent, especially for someone who has never been to an English speaking country. How about trying to get a job with the Polish-language service of the BBC World Service*? Of course that would involve speaking Polish, not English, but you'd be dealing with BBC types, and could pick yourself up a "BBC English" accent (for use when required! :-) ). (*Assuming there is one: they've suffered a lot of cutbacks). 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5432 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 44 of 104 03 November 2013 at 4:34pm | IP Logged | |||||
Like @Solfrid Cristin, I think this profile is most impressive. There is a clear distinction between those languages that have been certified and those that have not. And, above all, no attempt to tag CEFR descriptors to the non-certified languages. In the latter cases, the descriptions are in general terms. I can only commend this HTLAL member. I should point out that there are other commendable posts of similar nature in this thread. Unfortunately, many other posts do not follow this pattern. But before looking at them, I'd like to point out that some people are convinced that I have nothing better to do here than ruin threads with obnoxious posts. It would seem that all I do is kidnap threads and rant about fluency, the CEFR, why you don't have to learn more than 300 words in a language, argue about the languages of ex-Yugoslavia and how HTLALers lie about their language skills. I let readers make their own judgment. It's no sweat off my back. The issue that I've raised in this thread is how people are using the CEFR descriptors for non-tested languages. Those people who have sat the CEFR certifications tests, especially at the upper levels, know how daunting they can be. I've been there; it's no cakewalk. It's one thing to say "My Spanish is really good" and another thing to spend four hours jumping through a bunch of linguistic hoops including a 30-minute debate with two professors of Spanish. I note that a fair number of people in this thread have never taken a CEFR certification test. There is often no compelling reason to do so. Yet at the same time they willingly describe their skills using the CEFR descriptors including C1/C2. This is where I wonder how many people have actually looked at the can do statements that define the various skill levels. I see for example that in terms of spoken production the C1 level includes: "I can give a clearly developed presentation on a subject in my fields of personal or professional interest, departing when necessary from the prepared text and following up spontaneously points raised by members of the audience." And Language Quality for C1 includes: "I have a good command of a broad vocabulary allowing gaps to be readily overcome with circumlocutions ; I rarely have to search obviously for expressions or compromise on saying exactly what I want to." The problem of course is the self-evaluation is a difficult exercise. This is why we have tests. I am certainly not saying that people are dishonest or liars. I just think it is at best tricky to evaluate one's can-do abilities without actually doing or having done them. Edited by s_allard on 03 November 2013 at 4:37pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| tarvos Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member China likeapolyglot.wordpr Joined 4709 days ago 5310 posts - 9399 votes Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish | Message 45 of 104 03 November 2013 at 4:52pm | IP Logged | |||||
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For the record, s_allard - I have done exercises and taken classes at the AF for French,
and all Dutch language courses at school are coupled to the CEFR. (English, French, German in my case). For those languages I could prove it - for the others, you'll have to take my word, but the activities I do in them should show that they can be up or down a level but it doesn't hugely matter. 3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
 emk Diglot Moderator United States Joined 5534 days ago 2615 posts - 8806 votes Speaks: English*, FrenchB2 Studies: Spanish, Ancient Egyptian Personal Language Map | Message 46 of 104 03 November 2013 at 5:10pm | IP Logged | |||||
When I participate in online discussions, I sometimes fall into this trap:
Once I've made my point a couple of times, and restated my argument a couple of different ways, I've learned that it's better to back off and let other people have their say, too. :-) If somebody on a forum somewhere is totally wrong, that's OK—I'm under no obligation to post anything or to help them see the error of their ways.
Yes, upper-level CEFRL exams, particularly the "diploma"-style exams (like the DELE, DELF and DALF) can be fairly challenging. My tutor is fond of pointing out that some native speakers would fail the DALF C1, because it focuses heavily on the academic register of the language, and on the student's ability to engage in structured intellectual argument. I think the "assessment"-style exams, such as the TCF, are a bit easier in some ways.
One nice thing about the COE checklist I posted is that it tries to correct a bit for this human overconfidence. For example, I didn't feel I met all the checklist criteria for B2 when I took my exam, but I still passed with a very solid score. Of course, this won't help anybody who's completely delusional about their skills reach an accurate assessment. But for the typical student, who's a bit overly-optimistic, but not totally out of touch with reality, the COE checklist seems to give reasonable results. So if people want to go ahead and self-assess for fun, particularly if the goal is to mock our own skills a bit in the name of "dead honesty", I don't see any problem. Sure, some people will probably overestimate their own skills. Other people will underestimate. But it's not a big problem if people are "wrong on the internet." And besides, Solfrid's idea is fun, and I find it really interesting to see people's skill distributions. 7 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6599 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 47 of 104 03 November 2013 at 5:19pm | IP Logged | |||||
Also, I don't know how many times I need to repeat that not all high level tests involve a debate or presentation or other nonsense like that. A simple conversation ("interview") is enough, and I think I agree with the Finns that for B2 speaking into the microphone is enough. It's a FUN thread and it's not meant to be one for determining the best learners among us. The whole point of CEFR is that it can and should be used for self-assessment, not only actual exams. When I came back from the Finnish exam I told mum she'd not pass one in Russian, her native language. It's certainly possible to be able to do what the checklists require but not fulfill the requirements of an exam - in my book, the person will still be at the level in question, if we assess them as a polyglot and not as a potential employee. Edited by Serpent on 03 November 2013 at 5:27pm 3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| beano Diglot Senior Member United KingdomRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 4624 days ago 1049 posts - 2152 votes Speaks: English*, German Studies: Russian, Serbian, Hungarian | Message 48 of 104 03 November 2013 at 5:34pm | IP Logged | |||||
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Has anyone scrubbed a language from their CV?
In the 90s I could speak Irish at A2 level and I went to a couple of residential courses to practise. But my interest waned and now I can barely remember anything. 1 person has voted this message useful |
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