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Good strike rate for German grammar | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Specific Languages |  | |
| tarvos Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member China likeapolyglot.wordpr Joined 4711 days ago 5310 posts - 9399 votes  Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish | Message 25 of 70 27 December 2013 at 11:27am | IP Logged | |||||||||||
I MADE MISTAKES, WORLD WENT UNDER 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| josepablo Tetraglot Senior Member Portugal Joined 3994 days ago 123 posts - 141 votes Speaks: German, Spanish, Dutch, Portuguese Studies: Russian, Mandarin, Turkish | Message 26 of 70 27 December 2013 at 4:08pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
No need to shout. 3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5434 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 27 of 70 27 December 2013 at 4:45pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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For those people who are seriously interested in the subject at hand and are not given to childishness and shouting, there are plenty of excellent papers on the Internet about the acquisition of grammatical gender, such as this outstanding one.
psych.stanford.edu/~michael/papers/Arnon_granularity.pdf As you will see in the abstract below, the author emphasizes the importance of leaning gender in context, i.e. surrounded by the morphological markings of the agreement system. This is contrasted with learning just words and their gender. "Why do adult language learners typically fail to acquire second languages with native proficiency? Does prior linguistic experience influence the size of the ‘‘units’’ adults attend to in learning, and if so, how does this influence what gets learned? Here, we examine these questions in relation to grammatical gender, which adult learners almost invariably struggle to master. We present a model of learning that predicts that exposure to smaller units (such as nouns) before exposure to larger linguistic units (such as sentences) can critically impair learning about predictive relations between units: such as that between a noun and its article. This prediction is then confirmed by a study of adult participants learning grammatical gender in an artificial language. Adults learned both nouns and their articles better when they were first heard nouns used in context with their articles prior to hearing the nouns individually, compared with learners who first heard the nouns in isolation, prior to hearing them used in context. In the light of these results, we discuss the role gender appears to play in language, the importance of meaning in artificial grammar learning,and the implications of this work for the structure of L2-training." Edited by s_allard on 27 December 2013 at 5:04pm 5 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| tarvos Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member China likeapolyglot.wordpr Joined 4711 days ago 5310 posts - 9399 votes Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish | Message 28 of 70 27 December 2013 at 7:04pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
If you don't want me to shout and make childish jokes, you ought to be taken seriously first ;) 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| Bakunin Diglot Senior Member Switzerland outerkhmer.blogspot. Joined 5134 days ago 531 posts - 1126 votes Speaks: German*, Thai Studies: Khmer | Message 29 of 70 27 December 2013 at 7:56pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
I find s_allard's contribution to the discussion interesting and thoughtful. We all have different experiences, views and predilections, and a comment that seems useless to one person may be useful for somebody else. It's perfectly fine to disagree. Nobody likes to be ridiculed, though, and I would really appreciate it if you, tarvos, reacted to s_allard's comments in a respectful manner. 5 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6601 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 30 of 70 27 December 2013 at 10:12pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| schoenewaelder Diglot Senior Member Germany Joined 5564 days ago 759 posts - 1197 votes Speaks: English*, French Studies: German, Spanish, Dutch | Message 31 of 70 28 December 2013 at 4:26pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
The only time I have been corrected by a Tandem parter with regard to gender was on adjective agreement, but I suspect it was probably because I completely left the ending off, and adding anything (-e, -en, -er) would have created the correct rythm to the sentence. (and adjectives without endings sound like adverbs) That may be the case in French, where making things feminine usually adds at least one extra syllable to the sentence. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| mrwarper Diglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member Spain forum_posts.asp?TID=Registered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5230 days ago 1493 posts - 2500 votes Speaks: Spanish*, EnglishC2 Studies: German, Russian, Japanese | Message 32 of 70 29 December 2013 at 12:50pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
Sometimes you just gotta love this forum :) BTW, a word of warning: the forum has skipped sending me notifications about this and some other threads *for a while* again, and then just went back to normal, sending me the due notifications plus a few more. I know this belongs in the tech room but I don't see generalized complaining, so I'll leave it at that.
Spanish does that only in the passive participle. If you meant something else, please educate me. Anyway, wrt to numbers I always advice to be careful. I've made my own research and experiments in very restricted yet related fields and I wouldn't be very surprised if when counting properly (a huge problem in itself) we got the result that good speakers do 99.7% or more and 'bad' foreign ones may go down to 'just' 99% before severe communications problems appear, or something like that. Normally I wouldn't mind comments in the vein of "just go ahead and make mistakes", but I've come to think how this can be harmful for newbies that may take such statements at face value and lock themselves in a happy-go-lucky blabbering for a long time, so I'd like to add something. The way I see it, there's only two good things about making mistakes: 1) losing fear of making them --which leads to an even less desirable communication breakdown--, and 2) eventually eliciting corrections. As long as communication keeps going, mistakes are only hurdles and thus the less they are made, the better, and proper study will avoid lots of them from the very beginning. @s_allard, that paper looks interesting indeed, but what I read in the abstract is that learning article + noun seems context enough for the author ("learned both nouns and their articles better [...] nouns used in context with their articles prior to hearing the nouns individually"), which is the way I always learned/was taught nouns in German, and is precisely learning just words and their gender. I can only see how more context would help if gender could be erroneously deduced from the noun morphology, i.e. if a noun looks feminine but it is masculine, then masculine adjectives and such in addition to the masculine article might help to reinforce that 'looks vs. is' notion, but they seem unnecessary to me otherwise. 1 person has voted this message useful |
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