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Good strike rate for German grammar | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Specific Languages |  | |
| Gunshy Diglot Newbie United Kingdom Joined 4118 days ago 28 posts - 37 votes Speaks: English*, German Studies: French | Message 65 of 70 31 December 2013 at 6:29pm | IP Logged | |||||
Something in English which interests me is subject-verb agreement with international sports teams. I treat international sports teams as collective nouns (i.e. in my head the team isn't the country, but a unit representing one) which require verbs to be conjugated in the singular form to agree. But for some reason journalists tend to stick to the plural. From an article I read this morning for example: "Australia name uncapped batsman Alex Doolan as cover for Shane Watson..." (BBC) I don't really follow sport in German (I don't like soccer!) so I wasn't quite sure if the same was done as in English, but it seems not: "Argentinien mit Weltfußballer Lionel Messi bekam als zweiter Favorit aus Südamerika..." (Fussball.de) Edited by Gunshy on 31 December 2013 at 6:31pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6598 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes  4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 66 of 70 31 December 2013 at 8:08pm | IP Logged | |||||
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But collective nouns are often used with the plural, like family or police.
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| 1e4e6 Octoglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 4291 days ago 1013 posts - 1588 votes Speaks: English*, French, Spanish, Portuguese, Norwegian, Dutch, Swedish, Italian Studies: German, Danish, Russian, Catalan | Message 67 of 70 31 December 2013 at 10:40pm | IP Logged | |||||
Are you a cricket fan? In cricket commentary, broadcasting, etc. it seems that the format "[team] are" is the rule, i.e. the collective noun is the team and the plural is used. I have generally not seen it any other way, even in personal articles. For example, look at Ian Bell's article: http://www.espncric info.com/magazine/content/story/705511.html Australia seem to have reacted better than us during the back-to-back series. They have learned where to bowl to each of us and they have executed their plans brilliantly. They have been better than us in that regard. N.B.: bold added by me Note that he mentions, "Australia are..." and then follows then therewith "They are..." referring to Australia. So clearly, the team is "they". I am not sure if the Germanic languages use this phenomenon though. Also, a quick note, England lost again, lost the last four, and the last one had a clear advantage to win, but instead just collapsed for no reason to 179 all out in the third innings after being something like 81/1 and leading by 155 on the best days for batting. They had advantages in each of the four tests, but this last one was a seriously clear advantage. It reminds me of the lyrics to the famous Bryan Adams song "Cuts Like a Knife," This wouldn't be the first time, that things have gone astray. Now you've thrown it all away... Edited by 1e4e6 on 31 December 2013 at 10:43pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Stolan Senior Member United States Joined 4033 days ago 274 posts - 368 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Thai, Lowland Scots Studies: Arabic (classical), Cantonese | Message 68 of 70 31 December 2013 at 11:38pm | IP Logged | |||||
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Edit: No need. Edited by Stolan on 01 January 2014 at 12:05am 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Papashaw1 Newbie Australia Joined 4032 days ago 30 posts - 35 votes | Message 69 of 70 01 January 2014 at 11:11am | IP Logged | |||||
http://books.google.co.th/books? id=njmNQLz63_EC&pg=PA161&lpg=PA161&dq=german+vs+english+word +order+svo&source=bl&ots=nGTVA_a Y57&sig=Ts5Kn97r5Q5F8ijQjdjxHjonMCA&hl=en&sa=X&ei=UeHDUr3bKu yUiQf2v4GADg&redir_esc=y#v=onepage &q&f=false The German word order is influenced by outside choices to some degree. I don't have a library near me which has the whole book though. But I am intrigued by this one and someone else may have read it already here. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawaiian_grammar This language has plural articles and gets along fine without random plural endings. I am not saying now that German is entirely decreed but the idea that one thing gets easier if something is harder such as word order is not true. German has irregular plurals, different conjugation in strong nouns, 3 genders, etc. Russian has its infamous stress and conjugation classes. Although the above languages have the difficulties of analytic languages without the lack of inflection. They have prepositions but they take cases, they have periphrasic passives and tenses, but they conjugate. Russian has aspect verbs and such. German has the same analytical tenses as English except for the progressive, except they conjugate and use either sein or haben for perfect tenses. What irregularities do the less inflected ones like English or Chinese have? Ask any random person and he is more likely to say that German word order is more complex than either Thai, Chinese, or English. I already listed all the irregularities that cause changes. I am not saying this is unnatural, but there are languages that are just plain more complex than others in nearly every area. Both inflection and uninflecting grammar. I hate to say it, but all the speakers out there of certain Asian languages and English just have to admit they haven't created something that can compete with other European languages. This isn't Latin or Polish or Sanskrit or even Hungarian here where inflection is their method, I am talking about German which is just plain irregular and the analytical features are multiplied by synthetic features and gender. Edited by Papashaw1 on 02 January 2014 at 11:59am 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Gunshy Diglot Newbie United Kingdom Joined 4118 days ago 28 posts - 37 votes Speaks: English*, German Studies: French | Message 70 of 70 04 January 2014 at 3:43pm | IP Logged | |||||
With regards to they and their, I would still substitute the plural pronouns for international sports teams even when I treat them as singular subjects e.g. The Springboks (plural) will need to beat the All Blacks this year to build some momentum for their (plural) World Cup campaign in 2015. vs. South Africa (singular) will need to beat the All Blacks this year to build some momentum for their (plural) World Cup campaign in 2015. I guess journalists try to avoid doing this, so they treat teams as plural subjects regardless of the name. This is commonly done if someone can't decide the person's gender ( http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/words/he-or-she-versus-the y). I must admit I'm more of a fan of rugby than cricket, but I can't not watch the Ashes. And I support Australia. ;-) England was (I nearly said were!) dreadful last night, I couldn't believe my eyes when they were five wickets down with only 23 runs. What an innings! I fell asleep when Stokes and Ballance were batting, but all was lost by then. I do feel for Carberry, and wonder how he'd do opening in the final innings. I don't see him opening for England again. But Cook hasn't been any better. Edited by Gunshy on 04 January 2014 at 3:45pm 1 person has voted this message useful |
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