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Lack of Noun Gender in English | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Specific Languages |  | |
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6601 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes  4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 49 of 126 19 December 2013 at 1:31pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
As I said, I don't think the concept of gender is sexist. But some of the implementation definitely is, and the fact that male/masculine is pretty much the default gender also is. Or let's talk of it in terms of privilege. Don't you think it's a privilege that most default words for people describe you? That you never feel a lack of respect for your gender while filling out official forms? That you can look up a word in the dictionary and it's guaranteed to have the form used for your gender? These are small things, microaggressions if you will, but they are a part of a larger context. You can't answer the question "is it discrimination?" just by thinking whether you would feel discriminated if this was done to you. Apply the whole context to yourself and not only the specific instance of alleged discrimination. As an attempt to stay on topic... it's nice how English is so flexible and it's easy to make it gender-neutral. But if there's any need to strive for this neutrality, surely this indicates that the status quo is/was sexist? 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| tarvos Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member China likeapolyglot.wordpr Joined 4711 days ago 5310 posts - 9399 votes Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish | Message 50 of 126 19 December 2013 at 1:39pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
No, it means that the demands on language changed as a result of society's evolution and increasing research on gender studies. I always use singular "they" for example. There was a need to invent a word that was appropriate for describing certain situations which we didn't know existed before, or to use an old circumlocution for it. It's no different from coining new words in other territories. You can argue that is because the old word was sexist, but in my view it's just because we simply didn't have a word (not because we didn't want to have a word).
Blame the Vikings, then. I don't think the Vikings ever thought that "well, we have to have a masculine standard for every word". It's just how it historically grew and how the conjugation rules could be applied the best.
I never have the feeling this is lacking in any Dutch dictionary. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| vermillon Triglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 4682 days ago 602 posts - 1042 votes Speaks: French*, EnglishC2, Mandarin Studies: Japanese, German | Message 51 of 126 19 December 2013 at 1:45pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
Honestly? No. And you know what? When I fill in medical (hospital/surgery) forms, they ask me if I'm pregnant, and when I last had my period, something not quite relevant to my anatomy. And yet I don't feel offended. And I'm sure Muslims don't throw their arms in the air when they reach the question asking how many alcohol units they drink in a week. Still in the hospital, they use the word "nurse": I'm sure the male nurses must feel so incredibly discriminated against, to be called by a word that originally meant "breast-feeder" (something they'll never have the chance to do). And about dictionary, this is stupid. When I look up the word for "blue" or "gigantic" in a Russian dictionary, they'll come in the masculine form. And so? Is it going to make my life any easier? I wasn't planning on using these two adjectives to describe myself, so they'll just apply to other nouns that were randomly attributed a gender. 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Марк Senior Member Russian Federation Joined 5060 days ago 2096 posts - 2972 votes Speaks: Russian* | Message 52 of 126 19 December 2013 at 1:45pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
Common gender. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6601 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 53 of 126 19 December 2013 at 1:54pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
As for Regierung, you noted yourself how most people in the government are male. Would you feel differently if most of them were female and the word itself was feminine? 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| tarvos Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member China likeapolyglot.wordpr Joined 4711 days ago 5310 posts - 9399 votes Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish | Message 54 of 126 19 December 2013 at 2:03pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
Yes it does. Discrimination implies that it's negative. Otherwise no one would give a flying f**k. The word is masculine because it's masculine (the word "meisje" comes from the feminine "meid". We happened to find it convenient back in the day to have a neuter gender for diminutives (we can also use jongetje, for example! That isn't as idiomatic but it's also used. Sometimes idiomatic usages stick and it has nothing to do with considering women beneath you!)
No. It's a word and I don't associate its grammatical gender with the fact whether its owner is physically also feminine at all. To me the government simply means "governing body of a country" and the fact that it is feminine (which in Belgian Dutch requires you to say "de regering en haar leden" (the government and its members) are a grammatical construct which impinge on the correctness of my speech in a grammatical sense, not in a semantical one. A government is a concept and its feminity is only conserved because of the -ing/ung ending, which makes it grammatically possible to decline in certain ways. When I refer to a "meisje", I'll still use the feminine possessive "het meisje en HAAR speelgoed" (the girl and her toys). I don't get bothered by the sun being feminine either (it's feminine in Dutch) or salads being feminine or whatever. Or the fact that the basic word for a cat is feminine (a masculine cat has to be called "kater"). If you want you can make up some historical bullshit about why someone's language use is sexist. It's not sexist unless the intended use is really to discriminate in practice, it's just a grammatical construct that happens to have a feminine name. Edited by tarvos on 19 December 2013 at 2:04pm 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6601 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 55 of 126 19 December 2013 at 2:07pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
As for other stuff, maybe you'd feel more offended if it happened in various spheres in life all the time. Isolated instances are easy enough to ignore. (and no, I'm not saying discrimination against females should be replaced with discrimination against males.) I'm not sure Muslims are fine with the idea that the default, normal human drinks alcohol every now and then. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6601 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 56 of 126 19 December 2013 at 2:19pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
Frankly, there's no need to invent discrimination when you come across it all the time. Edited by Serpent on 19 December 2013 at 2:28pm 2 persons have voted this message useful |
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