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Features of the TL that you can’t stand | ||
Tags: "Louche" Languages | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : General discussion |  | |
| Medulin Tetraglot Senior Member Croatia Joined 4666 days ago 1199 posts - 2192 votes  Speaks: Croatian*, English, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Norwegian, Hindi, Nepali | Message 49 of 63 07 May 2014 at 9:49pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
standard Austrian and popular Bavarian . ;) http://www.duden.de/rechtschreibung/daheim If I'm not mistaken, BR has a popular soap opera ''Dahoam is dahoam'' (Daheim ist daheim). http://www.br.de/fernsehen/bayerisches-fernsehen/sendungen/d ahoam-is-dahoam/dahoam-is-dahoam110.html 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| Stolan Senior Member United States Joined 4030 days ago 274 posts - 368 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Thai, Lowland Scots Studies: Arabic (classical), Cantonese | Message 50 of 63 07 May 2014 at 10:10pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
Yes, I always feel weirded out when someone says "I have more trouble learning my own native language than your language lololo"... uh, so everything has to be prescribed in that language then? The above actually enrages me, I see so many idiotic comments over the internet on linguistics (even some on this forum), and I just want to reach across and shout my arguments. Edited by Stolan on 07 May 2014 at 10:15pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| tastyonions Triglot Senior Member United States goo.gl/UIdChYRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 4663 days ago 1044 posts - 1823 votes Speaks: English*, French, Spanish Studies: Italian | Message 51 of 63 07 May 2014 at 10:20pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
Haha, well, English grammar is definitely taught in U.S. schools in spite of the fact that I don't usually see English very high on the list of "grammatically hard" languages people mention. :-) 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| Stolan Senior Member United States Joined 4030 days ago 274 posts - 368 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Thai, Lowland Scots Studies: Arabic (classical), Cantonese | Message 52 of 63 07 May 2014 at 10:39pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
People go further than that, I almost always see the words "primitive" "pidgin" "simplistic" "backwards" said by the more nationalistic types when talking about English. They almost always say that their native language is harder for themselves as well, of course like all bigotries and forms of hatred, it is never consistent. They never lay a finger on languages like Cambodian, Malay, Vietnamese, or Thai where "Car car many come fastity fast hurry scurry, hit explode big fire, see today be amaze enter heart ah oh eeh?!!!" is a grammatically correct sentence instead of the blabber of a homeless man on sugary alchopop. But the reason most would think English is primitive is that conservative IE languages tend to be so horrifically overflowing with useless complications (the other extreme evil) that most speakers come to expect that of all languages in the world.
LOL! Overall, the phonology is EXTREMELY simple of those tonal asian language too. There are only 5-6 tones, but no big terms such as palatalization, voicing, word final devoicing, assimilation, vowel reduction or nearly any phonological exceptions, NONE AT ALL, one is just spouting words without any worry of things changing. Their phonology has barely any difficult processes, Russian is harder and more difficult to form overall than the most tonal language given. One must continuously modify every single consonant or vowel to agree with each other in very difficult processes that outweigh anything found in Vietnamese for example. A person must remember to assimilate prepositions, or remember to devoice a consonant unless it is followed by a specific consonant, one must reduce vowels if the stress changes, palatize a consonat if the following vowel in the inflection changes it randomly etc. Just because it has horrifically irregular morphology and far far more complicated grammar doesn't mean it is balanced out elsewhere, Russian has NOTHING balanced out, everything is difficult and much more complicated in every single area possible than any Asian or Native American language, it almost makes them look pathetic at how utterly simplistic they are in grammar, phonology, and semantics. I'm surprised it is not a fictional language! Edited by Stolan on 08 May 2014 at 12:23am 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6595 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 53 of 63 08 May 2014 at 12:34am | IP Logged | |||||||||||
*Yawn*. As I've already said, what we have balanced out is the extremely simple subjunctive. And no articles.
Isn't it what happens with the tones too? And you'll be understood if you mess up those things you mentioned in Russian. Will you be understood if you mess up all the tones in Cantonese? (I thought it had more than 5 too) Even if speaking impeccable Russian is as difficult as you say, making yourself understood is significantly easier. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| Stolan Senior Member United States Joined 4030 days ago 274 posts - 368 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Thai, Lowland Scots Studies: Arabic (classical), Cantonese | Message 54 of 63 08 May 2014 at 2:01am | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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Tone sandhi is the exception, Thai and Cambodian don't have them, neither do many conservative languages.
Only the minority such as southern Thai dialects and Min Chinese have sandhi that approached a 1/20 of the Russian phonology. BTW, the consonant devoicing makes the language more irregular when spoken, when a person hears a nominative, they wouldn't know how to pronounce an oblique case without searching it up. Even more irregularity! Once again Russian is an overflowing boiling melting pot that just continues to overflow and overflow with more being thrown it to clog it even further. One thing also is the sheer lack of derivational morphology too, Cambodian has a heavy amount but it has never been utilized to its full potential. Thai has borrowed nearly all it has from Sanskrit or Khmer. "Run man" =Runner. A word may be compounded or entire phrases may be used, otherwise, reduplication is the last thing available! Same with Mandarin 法国的=of France, France's, French etc. Words are just stacked. Oh, and they don't have any subjunctive either, modality in the form of verbs or conjunctions is often dropped. No articles (although Cantonese and Vietnamese can leave the classifier attached as a kind of definite article) Cantonese has 6 tones and 3 staccato like variations of tone 1,3, and 6 that occur in closed syllables. Aside from a few commonly used words or numerals, once you memorize the tones, bam! You can start speaking without having to go through all the processes in something like Russian where comparative adjectives for example have different suffixes based on consonant and stress. Vietnamese doesn't even have comparative forms! Prepositions, adverbs, adjectives=verbs in Vietnamese, one says "He tall than friend I"="He is taller than my friend" What is in the water they're drinking in Southeast Asia? Oh, the syllable structure of Russian is also more complex. There are very very few cluster and final consonants at all in those tonal languages, so no voicing or vowel processes even on a derivational level as in English! Thai has barely any native phonology alternating derivational morphology. Except for reduplication, yeah, I wonder if there is anything in the water over in Asia. This comic reminds me of what I think when I read or hear an east Asian language: http://i.imgur.com/GiiTKf8.png Except they aren't creoles, but they are even baby talk like in many ways despite not being creoles! (Not Cantonese or Lahu, they are good) Edited by Stolan on 08 May 2014 at 4:40am 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| eyðimörk Triglot Senior Member France goo.gl/aT4FY7 Joined 4097 days ago 490 posts - 1158 votes Speaks: Swedish*, English, French Studies: Breton, Italian | Message 55 of 63 08 May 2014 at 8:15am | IP Logged | |||||||||||
Why is that weird? It's an excellent base for understanding the next two obligatory languages you're about to learn (or in the case when I went to school, at a time when the importance of grammar was minimised, had already been learning for several years by the time syntax was so much as discussed). Heck, when I took Classical Greek at university the reading list included a book about grammar intended for students of Swedish, to ensure that everyone were up to speed. If the official grammar of the language is very different from how the language is generally spoken or written, though, I can understand if it seems weird to be teaching it. I was always a bit annoyed with the prescriptive element of our Swedish lessons, such as being taught how the language was supposed to sound even though few of us knew anyone who spoke like that. Remnants of the days of obligatory "Pronunciation Hygiene" classes, I suppose. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
 jeff_lindqvist Diglot Moderator SwedenRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 6907 days ago 4250 posts - 5711 votes Speaks: Swedish*, English Studies: German, Spanish, Russian, Dutch, Mandarin, Esperanto, Irish, French Personal Language Map | Message 56 of 63 08 May 2014 at 9:51am | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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That's my experience as well. In many long-term university courses in languages, there's a focus on general grammar during the first weeks - most likely to ensure that everyone had the tools required (I've experienced it twice for Russian and once for Portuguese). In the best of worlds, that wouldn't be necessary. However, not everyone knows the grammar terminology inside out.
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