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Gary’s 2015 TACtivation: FR, IT | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Language Learning Log |  | |
| Sarnek Diglot Senior Member Italy Joined 4217 days ago 308 posts - 414 votes  Speaks: Italian*, English Studies: German, Swedish | Message 73 of 187 12 March 2015 at 3:03pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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These are the ones I found yesterday:
1) [...] per quanto riguarda la stanchezza e le sue cause sottostante = per quanto riguarda la stanchezza e le sue cause sottostanti. Cause is plural feminine, sottostante is an adjective with "2 uscite", therefore it becomes sottostanti; 2) [...] se no il tempo limitato = se non il tempo limitato; These are a couple more I've had to be really picky to find... 3) [...] invece rendersi conto che si tratti di una questione di priorità = probably better if the verbs is in the present tense here (che si tratta...) 2) qualcosa che mi faccia svagarmi e divertirmi = qualcosa che mi faccia svagare e divertire (no need to repeat the pronoun). If you have any questions just ask away. 3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| garyb Triglot Senior Member ScotlandRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5209 days ago 1468 posts - 2413 votes Speaks: English*, Italian, French Studies: Spanish | Message 74 of 187 12 March 2015 at 3:41pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
I agree. In the French "customer service" interactions I mentioned, I was always really happy that I was speaking French and they were just replying completely normally in French. It's a small thing but it made me feel like a proper speaker, one of theirs as you say, rather than just a learner.
Yeah, it surprises me too, but many Italians I meet find it hard to comprehend the idea of someone learning their language, especially to an advanced level. I think a lot of people want to learn Italian, but not that many are successful and get beyond the basics. I've met a lot of other language learners at meetups etc. and judging by that, Italian is nowhere near as popular is the big two, French and Spanish. I still get annoyed by their idea that their language is useless though: it may only be associated with one country, but like you say, Italians and their culture are everywhere.
Agreed again. French is a language that gets butchered a hell of a lot so I can understand the attitudes they sometimes have towards learners. I've already written about my difficulties with finding language exchanges and with meetups dominated by learners.
Yep. No shortage of media and opportunities that are easily accessible if not outright unavoidable. I wonder if there's also an element of that in the compliments: "your Italian is better than my English" is really something like "your Italian is better by Italian learner standards then my English is by English learner standards". Or maybe I'm reading too much into it and just need to learn to take a compliment ;) Sarnek: Thanks a lot, that's helpful! These adjective endings are something I often mess up, especially in speaking: one of these errors that my Italian friends apparently never notice! Edited by garyb on 12 March 2015 at 3:43pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| Cavesa Triglot Senior Member Czech Republic Joined 5011 days ago 3277 posts - 6779 votes Speaks: Czech*, FrenchC2, EnglishC1 Studies: Spanish, German, Italian | Message 75 of 187 12 March 2015 at 8:43pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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Funny to hear about such wide spread failures at learning Italian. Today, I spoke with
an interesting and intelligent girl who's very interested in languages (she knows English, German and some Spanish and Italian, now learning French) and she claimed Italian to be totally easy. However, she finds the languages impossible to maintain as she finds very few original books to her taste in them (which I'd say is just for the lack of trying. I dislike it when people say things like "heh, there is nothing you'd want to read in Italian". Such a thought is just ignorance and arrogance in my opinion.). Really, easy? I dare to doubt that.
That is an interesting thought and it might be quite true. 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| eyðimörk Triglot Senior Member France goo.gl/aT4FY7 Joined 4101 days ago 490 posts - 1158 votes Speaks: Swedish*, English, French Studies: Breton, Italian | Message 76 of 187 12 March 2015 at 10:30pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
Ay, we have lots and lots of Englishmen. Truly lots of them. But the size of the expat bubble doesn't affect the natives much. :)
I suspect it's more of a "wide-spread failure at learning any language", with Italian (along with French and others) being a popular language in general. Let's not forget that this forum is in no way representative of the general public, and that most people who wish they spoke a language at most learn some touristy phrases, and either never progress much beyond that or give up and forget pretty much everything that they learnt. 4 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| garyb Triglot Senior Member ScotlandRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5209 days ago 1468 posts - 2413 votes Speaks: English*, Italian, French Studies: Spanish | Message 77 of 187 13 March 2015 at 11:46am | IP Logged | |||||||||||
I'm also surprised by that. I've had no problem finding interesting books (and films) in Italian, both classic and modern. French has been slightly more difficult but if you look hard enough you can find. English and Spanish learners are spoilt for choice. It could depend on taste though: I know that sci-fi and fantasy fans have been disappointed by the quantity and quantity available in languages other than English. Translations are always an option but I generally prefer original works for the cultural references etc. My taste is more for "real-life" type stories, which are easier to find. Easy? I think Italian is of typical difficulty for a Romance language, at least the ones I'm familiar with. We could debate till the cows come home about their repsective pronunciation or grammar or pluricentricity/dialects or whatever, but all things considered, I think that French, Italian and Spanish are all of similar difficulty. I can't speak for Germanic languages, but by FSI's numbers they're in the same category. So I find it hard to believe when people claim that any of them is an "easy language" or a "difficult language". No (natural) language is easy to learn, but relatively speaking, they're amongst the less difficult ones. Of course, many Italians are convinced that their language is one of the most difficult in Europe :). I wonder what level her Italian is at. I learnt the basics quite quickly and easily thanks to my French, so I was temporarily fooled into thinking it was an easy language, but reaching a more advanced level is a lot of hard work.
Yes, that's always important to remember! I've met a handful people who've learnt Italian to an impressive level. In terms of proportions, I'd say they tend to be a bit more successful than French learners, who seem to rarely reach an advanced level even after many years. Fewer people learn Italian seriously, but those who do tend to be passionate about it and make a serious effort. Like I said before, Italian is a popular language for dabbling and just learning the basics: lots of people think it's beautiful and travel to Italy. From my experience I'd say that Italian learners seem to be on one extreme or the other, learning only basics or learning very seriously, while French learners are more often in the middle, reaching an intermediate level but not progressing beyond that. 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| Cavesa Triglot Senior Member Czech Republic Joined 5011 days ago 3277 posts - 6779 votes Speaks: Czech*, FrenchC2, EnglishC1 Studies: Spanish, German, Italian | Message 78 of 187 13 March 2015 at 5:15pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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1. As a fantasy/sci-fi fan, I see no reason to be disappointed in any language of mine
(even though I imagine I might be disappointed if I learnt Navajo or Zulu, true). You just need to dig a bit deeper usually as the first page of the appropriate amazon will probably show just translations. French: awesome historical fantasy (such as Pevel), lots of fantasy aimed at younger readers (Brisou-Pelen, l'Homme), some fantasy/sci-fi of really good quality (Chattame), a few classical sci-fi authors as well (Boule- la planete des singes, Verne). tons of great historical and adventure novels, both old and modern, which are just next to fantasy/scifi Spanish: some sci-fi (got one on my shelf right now), some fantasy (cannot remember names yet but there are a few shelves in the Cervantes library), lots of historical novels (lots and lots), magical realism is basically a different kind of fantasy (again, tons and tons) ;-) German: some of their fantasy authors and books are well known abroad as well (such as the Neverending Story), some are yet to be discovered by the learner. authors both aiming at adults and some writing for younger readers. after all, it is the second largest bookmarket in Europe, I'll write about their fantasy later during the year as I'll hopefully get advanced enough to read by then. :-) a learner of Russian, Polish or Czech is likely to be excited by the wealth of sci- fi/fantasy, and I suppose most other languages do have at least a few good quality authors, they just don't have as huge marketing as Martin, Tolkien, Rowling and other anglophones. and I think a usual fantasy/scifi reader can find lots of interst and fun in books of related genres (adventures, historical novels, thrillers, detective novels, comic books, myths and so on), which widens the offer significantly. 2.I don't know her Italian level. I didn't want to argue with her but I believe Italian suffers from the same myth as Spanish (there was a nice thread about it). They are said to be easy and the basics to get by are trully easier to acquire than in French or English, in my opinion, but getting to a good level is a totally different story with lots of obstacles and adventure involved. 3.you are probably right about the Italian learners being in the extremes of the scale while the French being in the middle. But from my observation, most French learners become the "famous" "false beginners" and get stuck there forever, it is not even the true intermediate level. I think it is partially caused by the flawed ways of teaching French that I've experienced repeatedly. I would guess the Spanish learners might join the Italian ones as a crowd of beginners and a smaller one of advanced learners with very few people in between. Perhaps the myth of Italian/SPanish easiness isn't a bad thing. French is quite the opposite. the constant fear of French being difficult, the pronunciation impossible to learn and this or that grammar being bound to cause trouble, that is detrimental to French teaching in most settings. Edited by Cavesa on 13 March 2015 at 5:17pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| garyb Triglot Senior Member ScotlandRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5209 days ago 1468 posts - 2413 votes Speaks: English*, Italian, French Studies: Spanish | Message 79 of 187 16 March 2015 at 11:27am | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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You obviously know your fantasy and sci-fi a lot better than me; it's just a complaint that I hear from time to time. Interesting to hear that good stuff is out there. I know that some people have had trouble actually obtaining the stuff they want to read; emk has talked about the difficulty of buying French ebooks for example. I've easily found a Kindle edition of almost every Italian book I've wanted to read on Amazon, but for French, often the only options are a paper copy (with delivery costs) or a pirate source. But still, it hardly seems like a justification for not maintaining a language.
I'd agree about Spanish learners: plenty dabblers, but those who apply themselves tend to reach a good level. There are probably a lot of factors: teaching as you mention, motivation (seems that many learn French because "it would be nice", while for other languages they tend to have more concrete reasons), and the social factors like attitudes of native speakers towards learners that we've discussed various times before. Yeah, the preconceived ideas about ease/difficulty probably don't help either: they can put learners off or become a self-fulfilling prophecy, and native speakers who think their language is very difficult tend to be less helpful towards learners and question their motivations more. Anyway, news: I've found out that an Italian guy and his French girlfriend are going to stay in my flat for two weeks. I'll be away for one of these weeks and quite busy for the other, so the timing isn't ideal, but there should still be a few practice opportunities! 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| Cavesa Triglot Senior Member Czech Republic Joined 5011 days ago 3277 posts - 6779 votes Speaks: Czech*, FrenchC2, EnglishC1 Studies: Spanish, German, Italian | Message 80 of 187 16 March 2015 at 3:15pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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Well, the difficulties with getting ebooks, that is an issue of the appropriate medium
being unavailable, not a trouble with the content. Hopefully, the entertainment industry will understand one day that making piracy the only path for normal consumers is not a wise choice. :-) I think most readers can find something interesting and fun in most languages with at least a few million natives that is official in at least one country. However, if someone is interested strictly in one genre and doesn't enjoy even related ones, and isn't willing to try something new, then I am surprised they even want to learn another language as the culture tied to it tends to be a bit different. Well, it's not only the natives convincing the learners about difficulties of French. I've passed a really advanced exam and I'm still getting comments like "the French pronunciation is so hard, you cannot learn it well". And this attitude is everywhere. Teachers, coursebooks and so on. Sounds like great news, I hope you'll find some time to talk to your guests. 1 person has voted this message useful |
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