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 Language Learning Forum : Specific Languages |  | |
| Taiga Diglot Groupie Australia Joined 6308 days ago 81 posts - 85 votes  5 sounds Speaks: English, Spanish Studies: Russian, Serbo-Croatian | Message 25 of 96 22 August 2007 at 11:25pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||
well, my BOsnian, serbian and Croatian friends are still using "nashki" or "Nash" in Australia. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||||||||
| espfutbol98 Diglot Newbie United States Joined 5010 days ago 7 posts - 8 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish Studies: Serbo-Croatian, Albanian, Russian, German | Message 26 of 96 06 March 2011 at 4:25am | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||
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okay, to be honest, I haven't read all the post before since I've heard this discussion so many times but it seems to lack some specific examples so I'd be happy to share some. To begin, I've been learning BCS for 4 years and live in the US so you might discard my opinion, or maybe because I'm only 17 but whatever.
Bosnian, Croatian, and Serbian and I guess Montenegrin now all stem from Štokavski (except for some rare dialects) to begin with. There are 2 sub-dialects (Ekavski and Ijekavski) wich have been mentioned before that doesn't NECESSARILY point to either Serbian or Croatian (but many natives still make that generalization). Also most textbooks that I've seen say that the position of the question particle "li" is placed differently in the sentence which based on my experience with authentic texts is bull s**t (im referring to: Znaš li... instead of Da li znaš...) The vocabulary (and of course the use of Cyrillic) are the main indicators of which language/dialect, for instance: bre-ONLY serbian, slang for "man", "friend" zdravo-"hello", greeting attributed to the days of Tito by Croatians (a greeting to all without regard to social class/formality) prijatelj-"friend" in both languages but in Serbian, means more a "lifelong friend" while in Croatian, used generally and also for a lifelong friend. drug-Serbian for a "regular" friend drum-"road" but more associated with the days as Tito, Croatian usually uses "cesta" (or "put") although Serbian uses all 3 words. the difference in što/šta is a difference in formal Croatian/Serbian but I've heard šta being used in Croatian sometimes. Some words are a dead giveaway like saying glazba instead of muzika or nogomet instead of fudbal points you out as Croatian and not Serbian/Bosnian. I haven't heard much Bosnian but it's basically a mix of Serbian (mostly) and some Croatian. They do have more Turkish influence like in spelling 'laku noć', they spell it 'lakhu noć' To me, and all of the native speakers I talked to (quite a few), they are all dialects of Serbo-Croatian (or Yugoslavian). I believe that the separation is all political and nationalistic-trying to set the countries apart. I'd like to hear your opinions about my post, I haven't seen this information in any of the discussions obout BCS I've read. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||||||||
| Chung Diglot Senior Member Joined 7154 days ago 4228 posts - 8259 votes 20 sounds Speaks: English*, French Studies: Polish, Slovak, Uzbek, Turkish, Korean, Finnish | Message 27 of 96 06 March 2011 at 7:59am | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||
Strictly speaking those four standard languages stem from Eastern Hercegovinian Neo-Štokavian, and yes it is true that many people generalize (or simplify) the distinction between "Croatian" and "Serbian" as one between ijekavski and ekavski. Unfortunately this fails to explain how roughly 1.5 million Serbs are native speakers of štokavsko-ijekavski (like many Bosnians, Croats and Montenegrins) and that standard Serbian itself comes in ijekavski or ekavski sub-variants. Yes. "Znaš li..." is more frequent among Croats while "Da li znaš..." is more frequent among Montenegrins and Serbs. Bosnians use both without any marked preference overall. Despite the skewed frequencies, neither form is "wrong" for anyone (yet) and it is possible to see "Znaš li...?" used by Serbs and "Da li znaš...?" used by Croats. Low frequency of usage among users doesn't automatically mean that it's "wrong" or "ungrammatical".
More or less true. Croats are more likely to say "Bok" (< Bog) for "zdravo" which is an incomplete loan-translation from Austrian German Grüß Gott. Although I've heard Croats use "zdravo" with other Croats, while others skip these forms altogether and just greet one another with "di si?" or "gdje si?" meaning "where are you?" but understood in colloquial settings as "how ya doin'?" or "what's up?". There are a few tendencies in grammar that divide Croatian from the rest of the standards but again they're tendencies and notable for frequency rather than any set of rules that is "more correct". An example is the Croatian preference (especially more recently) of adding -a to the masculine/neuter singular adjective in genitive and attempted reversal of the effective merger of dative/locative masculine singular by fixing -omu for dative and -ome for locative. E.g. "hrvatskog jezika" vs. "hrvatskoga jezika" (of the Croatian language) "o hrvatskom jeziku" vs. "o hrvatskome jeziku" (about the Croatian language) "shodno hrvatskom jeziku" vs. "shodno hrvatskomu jeziku" (in accordance with the Croatian language) (To non-Croats "hrvatskoga jezika" is just as understandable and correct to them as "hrvatskog jezika" even if they themselves don't use it that often seeing the final -a as optional. Likewise for dative/locative, "-ome", "-omu" and "-om" were understood as meaning the same thing (but just stylistically distinct) since for former Yugoslavs the historically distinct endings of dative and locative had merged in the past. However for Croatian purists, "-oga" is handy because the other standards don't use it too often, and so frequent use of it can serve as a flag of "Croatianness". A similar idea has guided the prescriptions for "-ome" or "-omu" versus "-om")
So have I on the streets of Zagreb. "Šta?" is rather commonly used for "što?" despite what textbooks (and nationalists who like to emphasize the differences) would have you believe about how Croats and Serbs speak.
Yes. There are plenty of these nationally-marked words - much in the same way as "petrol" for a Briton means "gasoline" or "gas" to a North American, or how "football" refers to different sports depending on whether you're dealing with English-speakers in North America or English-speakers outside NA.
That's the biggest driver in the distinction right now. Perhaps in a few decades (or centuries) these variants wlll diverge into less intelligible communicative codes, and then it'd be much less controversial/more defensible to treat BCMS as separate languages.
See the following: BCMS profile (former Croatian profile) Bosnian/Croatian/Montenegrin/Serbian Bosnian, Croatian, Montenegrin, Serbian Croatian Croatian: što and šta Croatian/Bosnian Montenegrin Orthographical Question about Croatian Serbo-Croatian “Serbo-Croatian” and its descendants 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||||||||
| espfutbol98 Diglot Newbie United States Joined 5010 days ago 7 posts - 8 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish Studies: Serbo-Croatian, Albanian, Russian, German | Message 28 of 96 06 March 2011 at 5:46pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||
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Thanks, those were all really good points.
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| Whatever Newbie Croatia Joined 5009 days ago 4 posts - 6 votes | Message 29 of 96 07 March 2011 at 1:27am | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||
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I'm Croatian and first of all let me just say that I can't imagine someone wants to learn our language, I guess you really gotta love languages to embark on such a journey because it's not really useful to know it and most people here speak English anyway.
But what I really wanted to say regarding the differences in Serbian, Croatian, Bosnian....don't bother with that. Any way you learn it, you will be understood so don't get discouraged by that. While there are slight differences, bottom line is that you will be understood and that's all it matters. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||||||||
| Whatever Newbie Croatia Joined 5009 days ago 4 posts - 6 votes | Message 30 of 96 07 March 2011 at 10:34pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||
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Dude....when you say stuff like that you only discourage people from learning it. I get having national pride and I do want Croatia to be distinguished from Serbia as much as possible but the language is practically the same. Bottom line, if people said what you wrote the Croatian way in Serbia, they'd be understood...and vice versa. No one will mind if a foreigner speaks it the Serbian way in Croatia.... He might get politely corrected here and there but no big deal, 95 % of it will still be right and appropriate in both Serbia and Croatia.
The important thing for people here is to learn the language, they don't care about the political stuff so emphasizing differences doesn't help here and it only discourages people. Bottom line people, learn it any way you can if you're interested in learning it. Anyway it's good and it"ll get you through and make you understood. Don't worry about the differences, for you as foreignes who want to learn the language the differences are completely irrelevant. If you should worry about that at anytime, it's if and when you already master the language. Worrying about it before you master the language will only get you distracted and discouraged so don't bother with it. Edited by Whatever on 07 March 2011 at 10:37pm 3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||||||||
| bushwick Tetraglot Senior Member Netherlands Joined 6242 days ago 407 posts - 443 votes Speaks: German, Croatian*, English, Dutch Studies: French, Japanese | Message 31 of 96 07 March 2011 at 10:57pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||
funny how your agenda is pretty straightforward. sure, they are different languages, but this is, and will always be, a political classification. of course, it has to do with literature, vocabulary, etc. but technically, the two languages are clearly (CLEARLY) understandable to speakers of one another. not to mention that some croatian dialects (and serbian) are more incomprehensible than the two themselves. mind you, your "proof" is hardly any proof. seriously, let's stop discussing this. 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||||||||
| Maks Newbie Croatia Joined 5009 days ago 15 posts - 9 votes | Message 32 of 96 07 March 2011 at 11:08pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||
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Sorry for bad English, let me introduce myself, I'm Max from the Croatian.
Study the south Slavic languages and know well the difference between the Croatian and Serbian. Croatian and Serbian languages differ in 1 / 3 dictionaries. The main dictionary is similar or the same, while the most civilized dictionary completely different. Before the war I served in the army of Yugoslavia, together with the Serbs and not well understood their language, many times I did not understand what we are saying. Understanding exists but is limited, many young people today do not know what we learned at the school. Foreigners who have learned Serbian in Croatia did not find their way back and had to learn Croatian. EXAMPLE: English: Nose/Ear/Interlocutor/Collaboration/Air/Week/January..... Croatian: Nos/Uho/Sugovornik/Suradnja/Zrak/Tjedan/Siječanj.... Serbian: Nos/Uvo/Sagovornik/Saradnja/Vazduh/Sedmica or Nedelja/Januar.... ____________________________________________________________ _______________ EXAMPLE-SOUTH SLAVIC LANGUAGES: * [[Bulgarian language]] : По отношение на изгорелите газове и замърсяването на въздуха в Ерусалим, че ще бъде необходимо да се вземат мерки за сигурност! ---- * [[Macedonian language]] : Во однос на издувните гасови и загадувањето на воздухот во Ерусалим дека ќе биде потребно да се преземат мерки за безбедност! ---- * [[Serbian language]] : У погледу издувних гасова и загађивања ваздуха у Јерусалиму, било би потребно предузети мере безбедности! (U pogledu izduvnih gasova i zagađivanja vazduha u Jerusalimu, bilo bi potrebno preduzeti mere bezbednosti) ---- * [[Croatian language]] : Glede ispušnih plinova i zagađivanja zraka u Jeruzalemu, bilo bi potrebito poduzeti mjere sigurnosti! ---- * [[Slovenian language]] : Glede izpušnih plinov in onesnaženosti zraka v Jeruzalemu, bi bilo treba sprejeti varnostne ukrepe! __________ ____________________________________________________________ _______________ Edited by Maks on 07 March 2011 at 11:25pm 1 person has voted this message useful |
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