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 Language Learning Forum : Specific Languages |  | |
| Chung Diglot Senior Member Joined 7154 days ago 4228 posts - 8259 votes  20 sounds Speaks: English*, French Studies: Polish, Slovak, Uzbek, Turkish, Korean, Finnish | Message 33 of 96 07 March 2011 at 11:54pm | IP Logged | |||||
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A few comments:
- Croatian and Serbian are two different STANDARD LANGUAGES (cf. Brazilian and European Portuguese, Dutch of Belgium and Dutch of Holland). This says nothing on whether they're different languages or not considering that standardization processes depend on some language or dialect proper. Think of it this way: does this mean that before the standardization to modern Croatian, were the ancestors of the Croats incapable of communication because all that they knew natively was Old Chakavian, Old Kaykavian, Old Shtokavian or (even earlier) Proto-Slavonic? SIL's ISO codes are designed as an aid in bibliographic or organizational purposes for electronic recordkeeping. The presence (or absence) of a code from ISO corresponding to a language/dialect/idiolect actually makes no comment on whether something is a language or not. If anything, ISO codes for languages are derived politically since their basis is on whether someone has put forth a viable standardized version or on whatever some government has declared, rather than any criterion of mutual intelligibility as is more common when analyzing or classifying languages. In addition, the creation of an ISO code doesn't act as a final word since there's still controversy among linguists about the position of Hindi-Urdu, Malay-Indonesian or even English-Scots and all of these have ISO 639-3 codes. Likewise the EU's treatment of Croatian as a pending official language (remember Croatia is not in the EU yet!) makes no comment on the validity of Croatian being a distinct language or not given that the EU is a political organ. In addition, does the EU's lack of recognition of Luxembourgish weaken the case for Luxembourgish being a separate language even though Luxembourg is an EU member? (*rhetorical question*) - Cherry-picking while constructing texts to illustrate similarity, identity or difference is suspect in comparative linguistics. I could just as easily construct juxtaposed samples of "Croatian" and "Serbian" and not even you would be able to tell the difference and an indifferent observer could then be shunted into believing that they're identical (especially if I were to use Ijekavian "Serbian"), just as your juxtaposed texts could shunt the indifferent observer into thinking that they're totally different languages. Here's a brief example from the Devil's Advocate: Dobar dan. Zovem se Danko i živim u malom stanu u Rijeci. Supruga mi se zove Ana i imamo troje djeci, Katarina, Suzana i Milan. Radim u banci i uglavnom uživam u životu. ("Croatian") Dobar dan. Zovem se Danko i živim u malom stanu u Rijeci. Supruga mi se zove Ana i imamo troje djeci, Katarina, Suzana i Milan. Radim u banci i uglavnom uživam u životu. (Ijekavian "Serbian") If I were any better in your native speech, I could most likely conjure up even more complex but equally identical sentences that would pass muster as "good Croatian" AND "good Serbian". What should the observer conclude? (*rhetorical question*). This technique of cherry-picking has also been used by various quacks or charlatans to illustrate that some language is more closely-related or even virtually identical to another language of perceived high prestige than otherwise demonstrated. In other words, comparative linguists avoid constructing juxtaposed samples that magnify or eliminate divergence in an argument because of the vulnerability to manipulation and ease by which the audience can draw faulty conclusions. Bottom line: the fragmentation of Yugoslavia has not led to a linguistic fragmentation in lockstep despite the pronouncement of each of Bosnian", "Croatian", "Montenegrin" and "Serbian". More to the point for a learner of languages, there's little to be gained by treating BCMS as separate languages since learners of "Serbian", for example, can derive substantial benefit/practice exposing themselves to authentic material from or native-speakers of "Bosnian", "Croatian", "Montenegrin" or "Serbo-Croatian". There's still no point to put up the blinders. Edited by Chung on 08 March 2011 at 12:54am 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Whatever Newbie Croatia Joined 5009 days ago 4 posts - 6 votes | Message 34 of 96 08 March 2011 at 12:51am | IP Logged | |||||
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^ You got it sightly wrong there, in Croatia we use "ijekavica" and Serbs use "ekavica".
Croatian and Serbian language may have been a lot different in the 19th century and prior but since all the language reforms they became nearly identical. It's pretty much the same language nowadays and even though it's a hot political question here, foreign learners should not be bothered by that and just learn any variation that is available to them, anything is good. Seriously Maks, why discourage people? 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Chung Diglot Senior Member Joined 7154 days ago 4228 posts - 8259 votes 20 sounds Speaks: English*, French Studies: Polish, Slovak, Uzbek, Turkish, Korean, Finnish | Message 35 of 96 08 March 2011 at 1:52am | IP Logged | |||||
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Um... I would agree with you on the first point but then why does standard Serbian come in ekavica AND ijekavica? I'm thinking of Serbs in Montenegro (i.e. not Montenegrins) and Serbs in Republika Srpska. In any case, your comment indirectly indicates my doubts about constructing arbitrary sentences to demonstrate linguistic convergence or divergence. I deliberately chose ijekavica because we know that standard ijekavica is used natively by Croats and Serbs (and Bosniaks and Montenegrins) and so it provided to me a convenient yet truthful way to argue that Croatian and Serbian are identical (not the same, identical). This is of course a dubious conclusion but it should also highlight that things don't have to be identical to be treated as the same.
I could also have fooled around and constructed sentences with more contrast in an attempt to convince everyone that Croatian and Serbian can only be different languages in all senses of the idea just like Maks has tried to do. Dobar dan. Moje je ime Danko i živim u malome stanu u Rijeci. Moja žena se zove Ana i imamo troje djece, Katarina, Suzana i Milan. Radim u banci i uglavom uživam u životu. Добар дан. Зовем се Данкo и живим у малом стану у Ријеци. Cупругa ми се зове Ана и имамо троје деце, Катарина, Сузана и Милан. Pадим у банци и уопште уживам у животу. On the second point, I agree 110%. The differences are of little meaning to a foreign learner. It'd be like saying that ESL students must focus on the differences between British and American English rather than just learn (and practice) English. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Maks Newbie Croatia Joined 5009 days ago 15 posts - 9 votes | Message 36 of 96 08 March 2011 at 3:33pm | IP Logged | |||||
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DIFFERENCES
INTERNACIONALISM: Serbian: EVROPA/EVRO/HEMIJA/DEMOKRATIJA/BIROKRATIJA/UJEDINJENE NACIJE Croatian: EUROPA/EURO/KEMIJA/DEMOKRACIJA/BIROKRACIJA/UJEDINJENI NARODI COUNTRIES: Serbian: Holandija, Španija, Rumunija, Švajcarska, Portugalija, Letonija, Liban... Croatian: Nizozemska, Španjolska, Rumunjska, Švicarska, Portugal, Latvija, Libanon... RELIGION: Serbian:Krst/Krstaši/Hristos/Sv.Pavle/Sv.Jovan.... Croatian:Križ/Križari/Krist/Sv.Pavao/Sv.Ivan.... NAME: Serbian:Stefan or Stevan/Josif/Varvara/Savo.... Croatian:Stjepan or Stipan/Josip/Barbara/Franjo.... CITY: Serbian:Barselona, Jerusalim, Vitlajem, Paris,Atina.... Croatian: Barcelona, Jeruzalem, Betlehem,Pariz,Atena.... TECHNOLOGY: Serbian:Voz/Mašina/Pegla/Mikrotalasna pečnica/Friz/Lift/Saobračaj/Štampa/Saopštiti... Croatian:Vlak/Stroj/Glačalo/Mikrovalka/Zamrzivač/Dizalo/Pr omet/Tisak/Priopćiti... HISTORY: Serbian:Istorija/Vizantija/Varvar/Sloveni/Jevreji/Decenija/V ek/Milenijum.... Croatian:Povijest/Bizant/Barbar/Slaveni/Židovi/Desetljeće/ Stoljeće/Tisućljeće..... 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Chung Diglot Senior Member Joined 7154 days ago 4228 posts - 8259 votes 20 sounds Speaks: English*, French Studies: Polish, Slovak, Uzbek, Turkish, Korean, Finnish | Message 37 of 96 08 March 2011 at 6:04pm | IP Logged | |||||
Um... try again Maks. Standard Croatian and Standard Serbian were each standardized on Neo-Shtokavian Ijekavian as initially spoken between far southern Dalmatia and southwestern Serbia. The standard Neo-Shtokavian Ekavian for most Serbs today came into being later and today co-exists with Neo-Shtokavian Ijekavian. Slaveno-Serbian, Torlak, Kajkavian and Chakavian were effectively ignored despite the complaints from opponents of this common Neo-Shtokavian Ijekavian standardization effort. Standard Dutch and Standard German were each drawn from different dialects. Dutch took on Low Franconian as used originally Flanders and Brabant, German took on a hybrid of East Central German dialects used historically in Thuringia and Upper Saxony. Standard Czech and Standard Slovak each were also drawn from different dialects. Czech took on dialects spoken around Prague in the 17th century. Slovak took on dialects spoken around Banska Bystrica (today's central Slovakia) in the 19th century. Danish and Norwegian are not part of an useful comparison because the dominant Norwegian standard of Bokmål arose from Dano-Norwegian which was basically the result of educated Norwegians in southeastern Norway using Danish. Appealing to this pair of languages to the case of Croatian versus Serbian would be like saying that Serbian is Croatian as used by Serbs or that Croatian is Serbian as used by Croats (your comparison to Danish and Norwegian loses even more validity when you realize that Norwegian can also refer to Nynorsk which is distinct from Bokmål given that it was standardized or developed using dialects from western Norway). Bottom line, Croatian and Serbian are more accurately described or treated as parts of a pluricentric language like French, German, Hindi-Urdu (Hindustani), or Malay-Indonesian among others regardless of the obvious cultural or political differences between the ethnic groups who are laying their hands on the respective language.
Pray tell, why? As I've said before, flooding us with walls of lists does little and as I've shown in my posts, juxtaposed lists or contrived samples are inherently flawed since the creator can manipulate them to show identity, similarity or difference as desired. Edited by Chung on 08 March 2011 at 11:31pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| bushwick Tetraglot Senior Member Netherlands Joined 6242 days ago 407 posts - 443 votes Speaks: German, Croatian*, English, Dutch Studies: French, Japanese | Message 38 of 96 08 March 2011 at 9:08pm | IP Logged | |||||
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Maks is not here to discourage people. Whatever Maks is, be it Serbian or Croatian, he is simply your everyday nationalist (I hate to bring up this word, but I am completely astonished as for the motivation and desire of somebody to push these views on a language forum, where tolerance, is at least, the norm and utmost desire).
Maks, your list of "internationalisms" and listing of words means honestly, nothing at all. More than anything, your list goes to prove the view both Chung and I seem to espouse. Not to mention, that (sorry I have to resort to layman's justification) words like, "lift, mašina, pegla, milenij, štampa" etc etc etc, are used still in everyday speech by (even) young Croatians. Not to mention your badly sampled words like "sedmica" etc. of which a sligthly intelligent speaker of both languages (heck, even a foreigner who speaks them) could easily deduce what they mean. Your spellings are exactly that, you could easily present a native speaker with a spreadsheet of English and American English spellings and words; I think you'd end up with a blank look, at most. With this argumentation you'd hardly convince anybody. But hey, at least whoever might be reading this "discussion" will be presented how sensitively and un-scientifically this topic is discussed. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Aineko Triglot Senior Member New Zealand Joined 5446 days ago 238 posts - 442 votes Speaks: Serbian*, EnglishC2, Spanish Studies: Russian, Arabic (Written), Mandarin | Message 39 of 96 09 March 2011 at 12:28am | IP Logged | |||||
ahm...no, not even close. It's a word that is kind of used to emphasize your point. For example "Daj, bre!" is something like "Oh, come on!", or "'de ces, bre?" is like "Where do you think you are going?" etc. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Maks Newbie Croatia Joined 5009 days ago 15 posts - 9 votes | Message 40 of 96 09 March 2011 at 12:31am | IP Logged | |||||
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I do not agree with your views, you are obviously misinformed.
I live here and know very well what I say, Croatian and Serbian are two very different languages in which there is understanding, but it is limited. Take the example of the calendar, it is totally different, 95% Croats can not read Serbian language in Cyrillic. 1 / 3 vocabulary is different, and much of the unintelligible words, sentence structures are different. Seek professional help: http://www.ihjj.hr/index_en.html Edited by Maks on 09 March 2011 at 12:35am 1 person has voted this message useful |
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