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Speaking like Tarzan will help you. | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Questions About Your Target Languages |  | |
| xtremelingo Trilingual Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 6279 days ago 398 posts - 515 votes  Speaks: English*, Hindi*, Punjabi* Studies: German, French, Arabic (Written) | Message 1 of 123 12 September 2007 at 6:55am | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||||||||
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Many people that have difficulty speaking a language often do because they focus alot about tidbits in grammar and have a lack of confidence that slows their process down in communication.
Remember, the goal in speaking a language is communication. To express your thought and have others understand you. Whether you speak grammatically perfect is another story and usually an obstacle that requires time to perfect. It is sort of like speed-reading, many of us could read-faster if we train our eyes to not constantly look back at previous words or sentences as we read. We do the same with grammar and speaking, we focus ourselves too much in getting it out the right way instead of getting it out at all. When kids learn to speak they often speak with many mistakes. As they gain experience in the language, their mistakes are slowly fixed on their own. So my recommendation, actively do your courses that you have chosen. However, start speaking from DAY 1. Even if you do not know anything and have a very limited vocabulary -- work with that vocabulary, find a patient language exchange partner with whom you can converse with, even starting from the very beginning. Speak like Tarzan (this is an often mentioned tactic/method for ESL students), - ME GO HOME - ME WANT FOOD - I SWIM NOW etc. In the very beginning, to your native speaker you will sound like this (in their relative language), however you still get the communication out there. Your native speaker (as you gain experience) will correct your grammar often enough during the progress that it will stick. - I WANT TO GO HOME - I WANT TO EAT FOOD - I AM GOING TO SWIM NOW It is HIGHLY critical you practice speaking as EARLY as possible TO PEOPLE, even if your vocabulary and understanding is limited. You need to become COMFORTABLE with PEOPLE to speak. It is easy to sit in your room in privacy talking back to an audio program that will not judge you, however there is still an element of confidence that you must overcome when you speak to people that must be built over time. If you don't build this confidence skill, no matter how much training/lessons/programs you have completed, you will be nervous to converse -- even if you may be able to converse fluently, you will often second-guess yourself too much that will break your communication up. It is OK to make mistakes, that is a very HELPFUL part of the process and learning. Many people will complete full courses completely before they (first) engage in speaking, however many will still be shy at this point because they have not built the confidence enough with real people to practice. Being SHY has no place in language-learning as this factor will make or break you. You must get over shyness. So if you have to sound like tarzan in the beginning and have to feel a little silly or foolish in the beginning you will eventually see how this dramatically will pay off. It will also help you THINK in your target language. Edited by xtremelingo on 13 September 2007 at 5:28pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||||||||
| edwin Triglot Senior Member Canada towerofconfusi&Registered users can see my Skype Name Joined 6456 days ago 160 posts - 183 votes 9 sounds Speaks: Cantonese*, English, Mandarin Studies: French, Spanish, Portuguese | Message 2 of 123 12 September 2007 at 7:27am | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||||||||
Xtremelingo, Have you tried this method yourself? How do you feel after saying "me go home", "me want food", or "I swim now"? How do the other person feel? If you have tried, how long does the conversation usually last before switching back to your own language? At this early stage, can you rather talk to yourself instead? 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||||||||
| xtremelingo Trilingual Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 6279 days ago 398 posts - 515 votes Speaks: English*, Hindi*, Punjabi* Studies: German, French, Arabic (Written) | Message 3 of 123 12 September 2007 at 7:54am | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||||||||
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Yes, for all new language attempts I try this. Everything that I discuss in terms of methodology are simply things I do myself. Their effectiveness however is subjective to your individual learning style. This is what works for me.
If you have a patient language-exchange partner they should not mind this. Often it is a good idea to find a language exchange partner that is at the same level or below than you in your native tongue. This way if both partners are doing the same thing, they don't necessarily have to feel like they are in competition and they will be more patient with each other. It is usually always better to find a partner who is at a earlier stage than you, because in language-learning/exchange working with people at your level or higher in your native tongue is meaningless to you, since you already have mastery of your native tongue, therefore their skill level is not important to you, unless they study another target language that you are as well. Some people in language-exchange often avoid working with beginners because they *think* they have to do more work. Not true at all. It would be just about the same at all stages in learning, provided you stick to a routine/timed schedule. Therefore, if you go with people that are earlier in their learning process they will have more to benefit from you and thus you will have more to benefit from them. They are more likely to take interest in working and practicing with you, since you have more to offer. It may seem like "ah damn, I gotta do more work now because they need more help since they are beginners.." not really. Because if you work with a partner at an advanced stage, although they have the basics down, they too will require 'more work' in order to understand and learn more complex/advanced parts of your native tongue. Another good idea is don't just find language exchange partners that are native in your target language, but also find fellow language exchange partners in the same language you are studying (of course in this case you will want to go with someone who is at the same or advanced stage than you, so you can learn from them), because there is plenty of good practice to have. You can talk to each other and check with each other in your native language if understanding was accurate. But keep the use of this idea very minimal. Remember, the partner studying the same target language will also be engaging with other native speakers, and you can share notes. It is definitely good to study with people that are studying the same language, why study alone? Teaching each other is very effective. If you go with someone who is at a higher stage of the process in YOUR native tongue (depending on their personality) may not be as interested in you as much as you are in them. ESPECIALLY if you are a beginner in that language and you are doing 'tarzan speak.' So you must be selective if you do have an abundance of people to choose from, because finding a good partner is important. Also find multiple partners, it is ok to be polygamous in polyglottery ;). The more people you speak too, the varying voices you hear will help you understand different types of people better, than just working with one, same with gender. Diversify yourself with both men and women. Edited by xtremelingo on 12 September 2007 at 8:00am 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||||||||
| Marc Frisch Heptaglot Senior Member Germany Joined 6657 days ago 1001 posts - 1169 votes Speaks: German*, French, English, Spanish, Portuguese, Turkish, Italian Studies: Persian, Tamil | Message 4 of 123 12 September 2007 at 8:30am | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||||||||
I disagree. It's not critical at all, I've learned both French and Italian without speaking much before I had a solid understanding of the grammar and a good vocabulary and it has worked well in both cases. Making mistakes is not always helpful, as there is a danger that you reinforce bad habits (pronunciation, gramar mistakes), which are difficult to get rid of. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||||||||
| furyou_gaijin Senior Member Japan Joined 6378 days ago 540 posts - 631 votes Speaks: Latin* | Message 5 of 123 12 September 2007 at 8:42am | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||||||||
How very refreshing to read something that is completely opposite to the prevailing Theory of the Day, which seems to be 'listen lots and read lots and postpone speaking as long as you can'... :)
Sounds excellent for getting wrong patterns wired into your brain from the very beginning! And why even give yourself trouble to correct those mistakes later on?! After all, the communication is out there... Has anyone noticed how many English language students get stuck at this level for ever?
Yes, so you can reinforce each other's errors and destroy whatever good accent you might have started picking up from native speakers.
My personal point of view is that all language exchange is wrong as it brings together people with completely different sets of goals. Finding a person who will just speak their native language to you, without trading it for your language is so much more efficient and is within reach of everyone with decent communication skills. As for deciding on when is the right time to start harassing native speakers, I personally believe that it only makes sense from the moment one can have a simple yet fully functional conversation, i.e.: start the dialogue, answer and ask simple questions, deal with not understanding ('could you repeat that?.. maybe a bit slower?.. and what does 'X' mean exactly?') and eject from the conversation when it reaches the natural end or when your vocabulary is exhausted. I typically cringe at any attempts to use 'tourist' vocabulary, especially if it is by people who will be eternally stuck at that level. A sincere 'thank you' or 'hello' in your own language will be understood and appreciated just as much as an unbearably mispronounced 'ay-ri-gaa-toe goe-zai-ee-mass' or 'pree-vyet'. Edited by furyou_gaijin on 12 September 2007 at 8:44am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||||||||
| edwin Triglot Senior Member Canada towerofconfusi&Registered users can see my Skype Name Joined 6456 days ago 160 posts - 183 votes 9 sounds Speaks: Cantonese*, English, Mandarin Studies: French, Spanish, Portuguese | Message 6 of 123 12 September 2007 at 8:58am | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||||||||
In fact, before kids learn to speak, they listen. There should a silent period when one would just absorb the language by listening and reading. You can of course practice speaking by yourself in that period. The length of the period varies from person to person. Many linguistic experts support the "silent period" theory. I believe many members in this forum, including myself, also support it and have experienced it. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||||||||
| xtremelingo Trilingual Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 6279 days ago 398 posts - 515 votes Speaks: English*, Hindi*, Punjabi* Studies: German, French, Arabic (Written) | Message 7 of 123 12 September 2007 at 9:55am | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||||||||
I usually question "prevailing" theories, particularly when there is no such thing as a one-size-fits all method for language-learning or any forms of learnings. Except for one basic fundamental. You must do and work at it. It will not magically come.
No, because this is under the expectation that when you do this, your native speaker will correct you and you will take those corrections along with you to revise and improve based upon that. It is much better to speak/talk, make mistakes and learn, then not talk at all, under the assumption that you are magically learning how to talk by listening to audio only (oxymoron) (without having uttered creative constructions of phrases, except for what has been canned for you in the program) then to ultimately discover you were no better off at the end than you were in the beginning in terms of speaking creatively. You need to build experience in speaking creativity, such that you don't get stuck into the dilemma of only *MEMORIZING* canned phrases. Memorizing language is not the same as learning language. In (absolute) beginning stages, there is no choice but to speak like tarzan to get at least something coming out of your mouth. Learning how to be creative with speech is very important at all stages, learning how to construct new sentences and phrases in spoken language is a very difficult thing to do and should start as soon as possible regardless of what "grammar" level in speech you are at. This creative-training and confidence-buidling are seperate excercises that should be independent of everything else, and will accelerate every language you learn. This is to develop learning tools in you to learn any language, not just the target.
I know native speakers of English that are also stuck at this stage. Practice, extended education is very important, so is confidence, willpower and motivation to learn more. Serious language learners don't get stuck at this stage. Only people that are content with what they have learned usually do not go very far. This is only a suggestion for the beginning, not for the entire duration of your studies. I would expect and hope that you would want fluency at the end! Not just basic communication.
This is why I stated to do this minimally. I agree, this can affect progress unless without following up with the native speaker. Most often, beginners are not aware of 'errors' this early on but will recognize them as DIFFERENCES in each other's speech. In beginning stages, there should be very little differences as complexity is also minimal. So finding differences now will be even more obvious than at complex stages. When they encounter these differences, they know a problem exists. This is when they follow up with the native speaker to solve it. It is a quick way to identify differences in learning and remedy them quickly, as errors you find in others you may make yourself in the future. Often when you find things the same, then you know learning from each other's native speaker has been pretty consistent.
Yes I agree absolutely. It is more efficient. Unfortunately, finding these people are much harder than finding people willing to do an exchange. Also people that are willing to do an exchange understand exactly the challenges you are undergoing as they are too, and be far more sympathetic and patient to your mistakes because they will expect the same empathy from you. Personally, I take pleasure in teaching others, I guess this is why I am a teacher. But in terms of efficiency, yes you are right.
Agreed. It does prevent those "blank" moments, when no one knows where to go from here. And it gives you alot more ammo to begin with. I harass them early just to make the contacts, friendship and relationship. But I really don't actually bother with significant excercises until a few months later. In fact, I may start with teaching THEM FIRST as I learn my target on my own. Once I have reached my desired level of proficiency, then I start talking to them. At this point, many are happy with their progress, many will be appreciative and thankful, and thus now you've developed a relationship. Now on their end, returning the favour in high quality/focus/commitment seems to be alot easier.
Agreed. My method of learning does not depend on canned phrases, I cringe at that too, but I prefer developing creativity in speaking. Developing unique spoken sentences, and developing inquiry, critical reasoning skills in the target language, so to build more dynamics. Because people whom memorize canned phrases, WILL get stuck when encountered with something completely different 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||||||||
| xtremelingo Trilingual Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 6279 days ago 398 posts - 515 votes Speaks: English*, Hindi*, Punjabi* Studies: German, French, Arabic (Written) | Message 8 of 123 12 September 2007 at 10:02am | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||||||||
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Edwin,
Yes listening first is EXTREMELY important. But this does not mean it should not be supplemented with basic speech in the beginning. Basic speech will enforce listening skills, as you can only tell if you have listened correctly by seeing whether you comprehend or can use what you have learned in the correct context. If you can't, that means you have not been listening correctly. And often, many people will do hours of listening study, ASSUME they have been listening correctly/attentively, to find they actually were not paying as much attention as they think (day-dreaming) and have learned nothing. You must test your listening skill. And an easy way is to take what you have listened to (as you progress) and put them in context of creative speech, beginning with very basic (tarzan like) to advanced fluency. This is why teachers often give "pop-quizzes" after lessons. This is to test listening/comprehension as well as enforce attentiveness. And quizzes are never direct copies of a lesson, they are structured such that students utilize their problem-solving skills in conjunction with knowledge they attained through listening to solve the quiz. This is why taking what you have listened too, using it in the correct context preferably in speech in a dynamic situation will strengthen your ability to articulate as you progress. Yes solid foundation is important before you speak in a foreign tongue, but not a replacement for basic speech in early stages. Bottom line, you need to get used to talking, the sooner the better. Edited by xtremelingo on 12 September 2007 at 10:08am 1 person has voted this message useful |
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