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Speaking like Tarzan will help you. | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Questions About Your Target Languages |  | |
| furrykef Senior Member United States furrykef.com/ Joined 6464 days ago 681 posts - 862 votes  Speaks: English* Studies: Spanish, Japanese, Latin, Italian | Message 73 of 123 13 September 2007 at 5:45pm | IP Logged | ||
Another grammar correction: it should be "who", not "whom", because "who" is the subject of "do" (or "understand", however you want to see it). :) - Kef 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| xtremelingo Trilingual Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 6279 days ago 398 posts - 515 votes Speaks: English*, Hindi*, Punjabi* Studies: German, French, Arabic (Written) | Message 74 of 123 13 September 2007 at 5:51pm | IP Logged | ||
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Kef,
Thanks I make that mistake and plenty of others often. I don't proof-read much when I type on forums. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| FSI Senior Member United States Joined 6351 days ago 550 posts - 590 votes Speaks: English* | Message 75 of 123 13 September 2007 at 5:52pm | IP Logged | ||
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First of all, I'm glad we cleared up the native-vs-controlled environment issue. I still don't agree with the method, but it clarifies things to see you don't intend for it to be used in natural environments.
That said, I wonder how you would keep the learner from attempting to use his/her classroom grammar outside the classroom. After all, isn't what's learned in the classroom supposed to be learned for use outside the classroom? Why teach techniques you acknowledge are ineffective/harmful anywhere beyond the controlled environment in which you teach them? I keep going back to these two Antimoon articles. Here's part of the first one:
I agree with this completely, which is why we're never going to see eye to eye on the Tarzan issue; it fundamentally proposes everything this school of thought urges learners to avoid. This school urges accuracy above speed; yours seems to propose speed above accuracy. I believe speed is easily gained with accuracy, but accuracy is not nearly as achievable after a learned proficiency in error-riddled speech. We're on completely opposite ends. I won't delve into the study of music (learning to play jazz solos or complex classical pieces), but suffice it to say that the theory of accuracy before speed is just as vital there as it is in language study. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Linguamor Decaglot Senior Member United States Joined 6610 days ago 469 posts - 599 votes Speaks: English*, German, Italian, Spanish, Swedish, Danish, French, Norwegian, Portuguese, Dutch | Message 76 of 123 13 September 2007 at 6:00pm | IP Logged | ||
When I read a book in any of my languages, it is not like studying an academic subject because I am reading for content. I am reading for information or pleasure. Reading a book would be like studying an academic subject if I studied and tried to master the subject matter of the book (non-fiction), studied and analyzed the book as a work of literature (fiction), or if while reading I made grammar notes and lists of vocabulary to be studied and memorized. When you read for content you are not studying language, but you are nevertheless acquiring language. Language classes are most often a mixture of grammar and vocabulary study, some comprehensible input activities, and various forms of "practice". I am not impressed by the results achieved in language classes. By the way, I am a she. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| furrykef Senior Member United States furrykef.com/ Joined 6464 days ago 681 posts - 862 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Spanish, Japanese, Latin, Italian | Message 77 of 123 13 September 2007 at 6:14pm | IP Logged | ||
Right, but since the usage of "whom" trips up many speakers, and many people here speak it as a second language, I thought it needed to be pointed out. Anyway, I'll let you guys continue with your argument now. ;) - Kef 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| edwin Triglot Senior Member Canada towerofconfusi&Registered users can see my Skype Name Joined 6456 days ago 160 posts - 183 votes 9 sounds Speaks: Cantonese*, English, Mandarin Studies: French, Spanish, Portuguese | Message 78 of 123 13 September 2007 at 6:19pm | IP Logged | ||
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Xtremelingo,
Here is some more questions for you. You have been talking a lot about your ESL students. As I understand, you live in Canada. I wonder if any of your ESL students know less than 100 English words. For sure, people from Quebec should know more than 100, same for immigrants who scored enough to enter the country. The only possibility I can think of are the elderly immigrants. If your ESL students already know many English words, they are not at the Tarzan stage. They have already passed their silent periods, and should be actively practicing speaking. And you should not be speaking Tarzan to them! As for you, you have claimed to use the approach. I presume you used it for Hindi/Urdu, Punjabi, or French, or all of them. Did you use it in a classroom environment? If so, you mean your teachers were speaking Tarzan to you? Perhaps it is just me, but I would be outraged if my teacher gets paid to speak to me like that! Edited by edwin on 13 September 2007 at 6:21pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Linguamor Decaglot Senior Member United States Joined 6610 days ago 469 posts - 599 votes Speaks: English*, German, Italian, Spanish, Swedish, Danish, French, Norwegian, Portuguese, Dutch | Message 79 of 123 13 September 2007 at 6:21pm | IP Logged | ||
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I don't agree with the hypothesis that speaking with errors results in permanent error-filled speech. Observation and study of learners acquiring a second language shows that errors are prominent in early speech, but that with time and increased exposure to the target language, errors become less frequent and speech more native-like. Learners make errors when they have not yet acquired the grammar, words and expressions needed to express the meaning they want to express. With more language exposure they acquire more language and make fewer errors.
Comprehensible input is primary in language learning, but you do learn to speak by speaking in the sense that by speaking you get better at using the language that you have acquired. Edited by Linguamor on 13 September 2007 at 6:25pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| xtremelingo Trilingual Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 6279 days ago 398 posts - 515 votes Speaks: English*, Hindi*, Punjabi* Studies: German, French, Arabic (Written) | Message 80 of 123 13 September 2007 at 6:23pm | IP Logged | ||
Now I know why you can speak 10-languages. jk ;) My apologies for assuming you were male, just my natural assumption. I have hardly met any females with quite your capabilities. Not sure if that was a compliment. :) 1 person has voted this message useful |
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