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Speaking like Tarzan will help you. | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Questions About Your Target Languages |  | |
| LilleOSC Senior Member United States lille.theoffside.comRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 6683 days ago 545 posts - 546 votes  4 sounds Speaks: English* Studies: French, Arabic (Written) | Message 33 of 123 12 September 2007 at 6:26pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
I agree. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| xtremelingo Trilingual Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 6279 days ago 398 posts - 515 votes Speaks: English*, Hindi*, Punjabi* Studies: German, French, Arabic (Written) | Message 34 of 123 12 September 2007 at 7:10pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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Linguamor,
Thank you, but I can tell you from my experience how learning takes place, as I see it on a daily basis with my job, with hundreds of students each year (even if the majority are math/science students). However, I do have plenty of experience teaching ESL students and have learned how successful students have picked up the language versus unsuccessful students. The bottom line is, students that have always tried speaking, regardless of what level they were in were more often successful than students that did not try speaking, and waited particularly at later stages when they have memorized too many canned phrases, but have difficulty trying to construct their own phrases due to the lack of 'experience' in being creative in their target language. Simple as that. In fact, when a theory such as your "prevalent" theory supported by "linguistics experts" that may have no background in actual education/learning suggest that ONE method is the ONLY method that works -- that right away makes the entire theory skeptical, as these "experts" have not considered the different learning styles and abilities of each student. Every student learns in different ways, no such thing as a one-size-fits all. Therefore, there exists no such universal theory that would work in ALL cases for everyone. Any suggestion that there is, is flawed from the start. It is actually ABSURD for linguistics to try to develop a one-size-fits all method, because it does not take into account mental and cognitive differences. The theories you suggest by "experts" are parallel to what lost students in my classroom would suggest with regards to learning mathematics and science. That all you have to do is listen to the lesson and that you will magically remember it -- without doing homework from the very beginning, but waiting until last minute to cram for an exam. Very common behaviour exhibited by usually lazy students. Often, students that do not do their homework are not successful as those that do. Simple fact and easily proven on tests. So no question there. Homework is a tool to give yourself feedback, a tool to OUTPUT what you have learned and to reinforce understanding -- particularly with an expert of that subject -- the teacher, or in language-learning terms -- the native speaker. So in this case, if your "subject" is "learning how to speak", you must do your homework (speaking/listening) in order to be successful in speaking. Alot of this "absolute" silent period methods also do not take into account individual's ability to remain attentive the entire time, alot of 'day-dreamin' often occurs wasting alot of valueable time. Interaction, and output from the student is critical at all stages. Many education/learning experts will support this. Perhaps not linguistic experts, but then again, linguistic experts are not education experts. Edited by xtremelingo on 12 September 2007 at 7:22pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| edwin Triglot Senior Member Canada towerofconfusi&Registered users can see my Skype Name Joined 6456 days ago 160 posts - 183 votes 9 sounds Speaks: Cantonese*, English, Mandarin Studies: French, Spanish, Portuguese | Message 35 of 123 12 September 2007 at 7:24pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
Chances are that your ESL students have already passed their "silent periods", and they deperately need to practice speaking.
Ok, this guy is not willing to do some digging. Could someone kindly point him to some linguistic resources? 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| xtremelingo Trilingual Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 6279 days ago 398 posts - 515 votes Speaks: English*, Hindi*, Punjabi* Studies: German, French, Arabic (Written) | Message 36 of 123 12 September 2007 at 7:30pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
It seems to me that you have had a bad experience with language-exchanges, since you really seem to underestimate the sincerity of people that are there to HELP. They do not expect you to be perfect from the start, what would be the point then? It is not about mutilation, it is about simplification. You have to get communication across and then increase the complexity of communication progressively. If you haven't tried it, don't be too quick to judge it. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| xtremelingo Trilingual Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 6279 days ago 398 posts - 515 votes Speaks: English*, Hindi*, Punjabi* Studies: German, French, Arabic (Written) | Message 37 of 123 12 September 2007 at 7:46pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
Instead of asking others to do work for you, why don't you just give me the references that you have diligently 'dug' up, defend and study to prove your OWN point? I would love to read what you have came up with, remember, this forum is for active, meaningful exchange of ideas. I have read plenty of 'experts', and they do make good points -- sometimes. Don't cry because you hear something you do not agree with. No one has a gun to your head to follow it. Consider it, try it yourself (ideally) and discard it if it does not work for you. It is really that simple. Some people quick to judge methods they have not tried themselves. Did your mom tell you that by watching people ride a bike, without having ever get on one, that you will know how to ride one? Or I am assuming, by watching people fly airplanes in movies, that you are ready to get into a Boeing 747 and fly a long-haul flight, without any real, simplistic practice on Cessna's. Just as these sound silly, so does "staying silent" for an extended period (without any practice) to learn how to speak does Edited by xtremelingo on 12 September 2007 at 7:51pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| edwin Triglot Senior Member Canada towerofconfusi&Registered users can see my Skype Name Joined 6456 days ago 160 posts - 183 votes 9 sounds Speaks: Cantonese*, English, Mandarin Studies: French, Spanish, Portuguese | Message 38 of 123 12 September 2007 at 7:54pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
Xtremelingo, I did ask you earlier on in the thread. Have you tried it yourself? You didn't seem to have answered my question. I don't mean you being the native speaker, but as a learner. Let me state my question more clearly. Have you tried speaking to a native speaker in day 1 (or even week 1) when you learned a language completely from scratch? If you did, how long did the conversation last before you switch back to your familiar language? 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| edwin Triglot Senior Member Canada towerofconfusi&Registered users can see my Skype Name Joined 6456 days ago 160 posts - 183 votes 9 sounds Speaks: Cantonese*, English, Mandarin Studies: French, Spanish, Portuguese | Message 39 of 123 12 September 2007 at 7:59pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
I do have some links. But I feel that it is more appropriate for those who have more language learning experiences and have been in this forum for a longer time to give out the pointers. I don't want to pretend to be an expert here. I am only learning my forth and fifth languages. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| xtremelingo Trilingual Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 6279 days ago 398 posts - 515 votes Speaks: English*, Hindi*, Punjabi* Studies: German, French, Arabic (Written) | Message 40 of 123 12 September 2007 at 8:00pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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Edwin,
Oh no, I think many have misunderstood what I consider as a BEGINNER level. Of course logically, you do need a starting base-vocabulary, this is why I gave the example of 17-word vocabulary. My point was to show that it is possible to have meaninful exchange even with an extremely limited vocabulary, so it should not be underestimated that if you do not have at least 300 words, that communication is virtually impossible. Communication is possible once you have acquired enough vocabulary to convey a meaning, even if not grammatically correct. Vocabulary is more of a limiting factor than grammatical structure is to creative speech. Increasing vocabulary (even limited to a few words), committed to memory is useful at the start Most beginners should be trained to learn a very limited KEY-CORE vocabulary at the start and commit it to memory, this usually can be done in two-days for average learners. They will have the ability now for meaningful but limited exchange at earlier stages, then as they continue to progress their vocab will progress and so will understanding. OF COURSE this is NO SUBSTITUTE for language programs, listening or other learning methods. This is just to bring you speak sooner, more often and confidently, because many people that struggle with learning something new (in anything) are often because they are self-conscious and afraid of ridicule by others. If someone (such as your language exchange partner) is accepting of your tarzan speak early, you will build confidence and reduce your fear of making mistakes. Edwin, I will commend you that learning your fourth and fifth language is very impressive. In fact, you do not need to be an expert to offer your insight. I think any person that has managed to self-teach themselves a new language, even if it is second language has alot of valuable insight to offer in their own experience. To dismiss even these experiences is ignorant. Edited by xtremelingo on 12 September 2007 at 8:04pm 1 person has voted this message useful |
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