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Speaking like Tarzan will help you. | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Questions About Your Target Languages |  | |
| FSI Senior Member United States Joined 6351 days ago 550 posts - 590 votes  Speaks: English* | Message 41 of 123 12 September 2007 at 8:03pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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I think if your goal is to learn to speak as well as a native speaker, you should learn to say things the way a native speaker would. A native speaker would never say "Me want food", for example, so why should a learner? Why not learn to say "I want food" instead, and absorb a correct sentence that will never need to be corrected, instead of trying to invent the language yourself in a desperate attempt to create output without sufficient input?
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| xtremelingo Trilingual Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 6279 days ago 398 posts - 515 votes Speaks: English*, Hindi*, Punjabi* Studies: German, French, Arabic (Written) | Message 42 of 123 12 September 2007 at 8:09pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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FSI,
Definitely, these are just examples I am using. Of course I WANT FOOD is just as simplistic as ME WANT FOOD considering "I" was already mentioned in the conversation. Thank you. :) Yes, you would mimic the native speaker. In this case, there is no excuse that even with a limited vocabulary for pronounciation of those limited words in the aresenal. However for many beginners, trying to push them into the deep end with too much complexity at the start, will make them stare at you as if they were looking into space. Personally, I DO have a listening period, but I also try to speak early with limited vocabulary as a way to 'get talking' sooner. Edited by xtremelingo on 12 September 2007 at 8:10pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| edwin Triglot Senior Member Canada towerofconfusi&Registered users can see my Skype Name Joined 6456 days ago 160 posts - 183 votes 9 sounds Speaks: Cantonese*, English, Mandarin Studies: French, Spanish, Portuguese | Message 43 of 123 12 September 2007 at 8:55pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Xtremelingo,
Thanks for your compliment. I really consider myself an amateur when compared with many senior members in this forum. Now we all agree that a certain 'silent period', or 'listening/reading period', is required, the question becomes: How long? I hope we would agree on the bottom line that the native speaker must be saying to the learner sentences that are natural and grammatically correct, no matter how simplified the vocabulary is. I just want to make sure that you were not serious in your earlier hypothetical 'ME WANT FOOD' dialog. Here is the controversial part, in which some members in this forum disagree with each other. There is a camp that believes a learner does not need to rush to speak, and I am with them. Here is a paragraph from a paper by Krashen. Don't worry if you happen to hate this guy. Research from other linguistic experts also confirm the results. I pick this one because it is short. (I personally don't like reading long articles).
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| xtremelingo Trilingual Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 6279 days ago 398 posts - 515 votes Speaks: English*, Hindi*, Punjabi* Studies: German, French, Arabic (Written) | Message 44 of 123 12 September 2007 at 9:51pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
This is why your opinions and experience will be negated, because you view yourself as an amateur when you are not. You have alot to offer.
This is exactly the essence of what I mean. The only way to start determining that is to start seeing how much you have understood(listening) by actually speaking. By starting off at a beginner stage of speech and progressing through advanced stages, it is easier to measure an increase in performance relative to the stage before. You will know for your individuality, how long this silent period is based upon your own improvement in speech (as you progress from very basic to higher levels.) If you don't start speaking, you can LISTEN FOR ETERNITY and still not know when to stop listening, because you have no basis or reference to compare your improvement of listening comprehension if you can't take what you have listened to and apply it in different contexts (aside from canned phrases/situations). In speech, it is easier to identify improvement, progression and change relative to earlier stages.
Grammatically correct and natural sentences is what holds the very zero-experienced beginner down. It prevents communication initially because too much emphasis is placed on being RIGHT. Emphasis on being RIGHT all the time, does not allow much room for being WRONG. A beginner will most often be wrong than right. This environment of learning is not productive and supportive of the beginners learning. Emphasis should be placed on communication. Once that has been established, then getting into communicating correct grammar should become priority. Tarzan-speak is also a GREAT way to utilize learned vocabulary at the same time.
I am not saying to rush to speak correctly. I am saying rush to speak - to speak. If you try to rush to speak CORRECTLY, then of course this is not going to help you. When many say don't rush to speak -- they are assuming to speak properly and perfectly. This is NOT what I am saying.
Yes, speaking is output. However, the replies you encourage from speech for a partner, creates input (the same as LISTENING), except the reply you get is harder to anticipate because it is dynamic. This dynamic factor is what helps in developing creative speech, because you no longer rely on canned phrases/situations where you have a predefined/developed response already. Life is not like that, dynamic input provides flexibility in speech and your further reply.
That is because their insignificant output is stunted by focusing on trying to speak correctly and properly everytime, not to convey generalized meaning. Of course a beginner can NOT speak correctly in initial stages, they will not KNOW enough to do this obvious, hence why they are beginners.
Yes, if you are only referring to comprehension (because competence implies understanding). It is completely possible to understand but not know how to speak. That however does not imply that competency in SPEAKING will improve without output. Maybe only understanding and further input.
No output is not significant in language AQUISITION, in terms of ACQUIRING new language, because speaking is an output. However, speaking does help SPEAKING and practicing what you already know. In addition, SPEAKING encourages RESPONSE, and RESPONSE/REPLY to your speaking thus becomes a dynamic INPUT like reading (instead you are now reading the person and if person learning body language at the same time) Which is much more useful, because that INPUT is variable and changing over time. It forces you to think to a variable input stimuli, which is FAR better than re-listening to Pimsleur 50-x over which eventually becomes a lesson in memorization not learning.
Keep in mind, many native fluent speakers of English would actually fail the TOEFL. Because, it is heavily grammar based. Most native speakers of English have had very little education in grammar. Reading is probably the BEST thing in terms of fixing/improving grammar. So it is no surprise to me that READERS do better on the toefl. Many native speakers of english can speak english fluently, but it is riddled with incorrect grammar and slang. These people can still flunk the TOEFL. Therefore, using TOEFL is a bad example in terms of comparing language speaking fluency, as it is actually designed (as most paper-based tests are) targeting reading comprehension.
That is because they are taught that to speak you must only speak correctly at all times. Of course this will give anyone anxiety, because it is pressure. If they learn to speak in a manner in which is simplified, they will see quicker positive results, and build confidence in themselves much faster, because they will see people have understand them very early on in their learning, which also does wonders for motivation and confidence. Even learners who understand their target very well, after extensive periods of listening STILL have anxiety about speaking -- and this is usually due inexperience of actually speaking.
Exactly my point. They are put in front of fluent speakers, and feel they must perform as fluently as their teachers. When they speak to a teacher, whom speaks to them back in a very basic way, they too will be comfortable using this basic approach. It is the expectation of being perfect and correct all the time that is much cause of this anxiety, and the vicious cycle will continue because there is no attempt in encouraging speak -- even if it is tarzan like. If I am teaching a new person English, I am much happier at seeing them use vocabulary in the correct context and order. This shows to me that they are using their acquired vocabularly in a meaninful way at the very start. What good is memorizing so many words if you do not know how to use them, even in the most simplistic fashion like tarzan? 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| manny Triglot Senior Member United States Joined 6350 days ago 248 posts - 240 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish, Tagalog Studies: French, German | Message 45 of 123 12 September 2007 at 10:45pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Whoa!!!
Please correct (quickly) me if I'm wrong, but is not the main focus of this forum "people learning languages on their own"? I assume the original email in this thread applies to this. Why are we all of sudden talking about "forcing students to speak before they are ready"? When did we switch? Edited by manny on 13 September 2007 at 12:25am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Linguamor Decaglot Senior Member United States Joined 6610 days ago 469 posts - 599 votes Speaks: English*, German, Italian, Spanish, Swedish, Danish, French, Norwegian, Portuguese, Dutch | Message 46 of 123 13 September 2007 at 12:13am | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
I would expect that anyone who is presenting himself as an expert on language learning would already be familiar with the research on language acquisition and know something about linguistics and language. Your posts betray little understanding, or even interest in understanding, these. It is YOUR responsibility to know what you are talking about. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| furrykef Senior Member United States furrykef.com/ Joined 6464 days ago 681 posts - 862 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Spanish, Japanese, Latin, Italian | Message 47 of 123 13 September 2007 at 1:39am | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
I strongly agree with furyou_gaijin on this. Even I, a fellow language learner who understands and appreciates the value of corrections, often find myself just not bothering to correct other speakers for anything but the most egregious mistakes. The other day I was talking to another person learning English, and writing it, to be frank, pretty badly. I asked him how much he wanted me to correct his errors. He said, "All my errors, please." What I wanted to tell him -- but didn't -- is that if I corrected every single one of his errors, I wouldn't have time to say anything else, particularly since the errors would be complex to adequately explain. If a speaker rarely makes mistakes, I might be more inclined to point them out because then it isn't so time-consuming. And, again, I'm somebody who understands the value of corrections. Somebody who doesn't is surely not likely to do better! Moreover, I don't think speaking "from day one" really makes it that much easier. I try to read Spanish more than I write it -- although I do write it from time to time -- and sometimes phrases pop into my head in Spanish before they do in English. For instance, today I had the phrase "No quieres saber lo que sucedió hoy" pop into my head before the English "You don't want to know what happened today" did. The words did pop into my head a bit more slowly than they would in English, but that's only a matter of practice. That sometimes I think a phrase in Spanish certainly means something, I think. I do agree that there is no "one size fits all" method for everybody, but it's almost as if you wish to apply your own method in that fashion. A "from day one" approach may well be appropriate for some people, but I don't it's right for enough people to just simply recommend it to everyone, without caveat. - Kef Edited by furrykef on 13 September 2007 at 1:39am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| maxb Diglot Senior Member Sweden Joined 7175 days ago 536 posts - 589 votes 7 sounds Speaks: Swedish*, English Studies: Mandarin | Message 48 of 123 13 September 2007 at 1:53am | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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I actually think this method could work but you would need an extremely patient partner. Also you would need to tell him to correct every single mistake you make. Often what will happen is that the native speaker gets used to your accent and grammar mistakes and understands everything you say and thus stops correcting you.
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