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Krashen and LingQ | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Language Programs, Books & Tapes |  | |
| Zhuangzi Nonaglot Language Program Publisher Senior Member Canada lingq.com Joined 7031 days ago 646 posts - 688 votes  Speaks: English*, French, Japanese, Swedish, Mandarin, Cantonese, German, Italian, Spanish Studies: Russian | Message 33 of 60 30 December 2007 at 3:13pm | IP Logged | ||
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Getting back to the subject at hand, I think there is consensus that extensive and intensive reading are both useful forms of comprehensible input.
The range of tools and resources available to the language learner today make material with a relatively high incidence of unknown words "comprehensible' or at least enjoyable and worthwhile. This means that authentic content can be accessed earlier. With the internet, such content,often with audio, is easier than before to find and to use,easier than when Krashen first postulated his method. A variety of content types, some "intensive" and some more "extensive" are probably used by most learners. I am sure that all but the most dedicated Listen-Read enthusiasts mix things up. Since the most important factor in learning success may well be "time on task" as a director of the FSI institute once said, doing what you like doing, as long as you are in contact with the language, is perhaps the most important consideration. Edited by Zhuangzi on 30 December 2007 at 3:15pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| frenkeld Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 6946 days ago 2042 posts - 2719 votes Speaks: Russian*, English Studies: German | Message 34 of 60 30 December 2007 at 9:20pm | IP Logged | ||
That's the standard approach, but it is still interesting to look at the limiting cases. One hears sometimes taht one can't look up every new word in a novel. What utter nonsense, nothing could be easier. You read sentence one, look up every word in it in a paper dictionary, and record the words and the translations in a notebook. Then you move to sentence two. I am not being facetious here - this is a very effective method with which you will see your vocabulary snowball. You will have to spend a bit of time with that novel, so pick one you find interesting enough to be worth spending all that time with. The only slack you have to cut yourself is that while you may be able to look up every individual word, some phrases and idiomatic construction may escape you no matter how hard you look in the fattest dictionary you have. Can't have it all. Another limiting case is that of pure extensive reading. It is not as clear what and how soon it leads to, although one hears occasional reports of it having produced solid results in the end. I am still hoping someone knows and would be willing to share what Krashen himself recommended. Edited by frenkeld on 30 December 2007 at 9:20pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Zhuangzi Nonaglot Language Program Publisher Senior Member Canada lingq.com Joined 7031 days ago 646 posts - 688 votes Speaks: English*, French, Japanese, Swedish, Mandarin, Cantonese, German, Italian, Spanish Studies: Russian | Message 35 of 60 30 December 2007 at 9:41pm | IP Logged | ||
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frankeld,
I suggest that motivation and therefore enjoyment is the most important factor. If you do what you like to do, extensive reading or intensive reading or something in between, with or without a dictionary, you are more likely to learn. I mean your brain is more likely to pick up on the stimulus. What is more, you are more likely to put in the time. So one should not rule any approach, try them all and use what works. The key is that the learner decide what works best for him or her, in other words what he/she likes to do. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| kewms Senior Member United States Joined 6190 days ago 160 posts - 159 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Japanese | Message 36 of 60 30 December 2007 at 11:10pm | IP Logged | ||
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Many of Krashen's papers are online at
http://www.sdkrashen.com/index.php?cat=6 I was not able to find his specific recommendations for second language "comprehensible input," just his conclusion that lots of it is good. Much of his work focuses on first language acquisition, including first language literacy. He argues that the same principles apply to adult second language acquisition, but I wasn't able to tell how rigorously that hypothesis has been tested. Katherine 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| frenkeld Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 6946 days ago 2042 posts - 2719 votes Speaks: Russian*, English Studies: German | Message 37 of 60 31 December 2007 at 10:27am | IP Logged | ||
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Katherine,
Thanks for the link.
We can still discuss the intrinsic efficiency of various approaches. Also, I like both reading with a dictionary and without. My current focus on extensive reading is driven more by a preference for monolingual techniques that very few people seem to share, and my two monolingual German dictionaries are both electronic, while I do most of my reading away from the computer. Edited by frenkeld on 31 December 2007 at 10:28am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Zhuangzi Nonaglot Language Program Publisher Senior Member Canada lingq.com Joined 7031 days ago 646 posts - 688 votes Speaks: English*, French, Japanese, Swedish, Mandarin, Cantonese, German, Italian, Spanish Studies: Russian | Message 38 of 60 31 December 2007 at 10:28am | IP Logged | ||
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Second Language Acquisition and Second Language Learning Stephen D Krashen University of Southern California http://www.sdkrashen.com/SL_Acquisition_and_Learning/index.h tml As to how "rigorously" his theory has been tested, there appears to be just as much "research" supporting his claims, as "research" that supports contrary positions. In my experience massive input is necessary and the most important ingredient in language acquisition. Input is communication. For that communication to be meaningful the content is best chosen by the learner. This usually means moving to authentic content as soon as possible in order to maintain interest. Thus I am not such a fan of graded readers or dumbed down text unless the subject matter is really of interest. Therefore reading material with less than 5% new words, for me is not really an important component of my input until after a long period of reading content with lots of new words (over 20%), which I read and especially listen to, repetitively and often. I try to select for % new words. I try to focus on one author or content area for a while so that words that I have just learned will repeat and the new words % decreases for a while. I do this quite extensively. I have read and listened to a lot of Russian in the last 18 months. This means that in the pursuit of authentic material one either uses bilingual texts, a traditional dictionary, annotated readers, or reads on the computer, at least the first time through. (Subsequent readings can be from the print out), or a combination. I do not think it is practical to just rad material with less than 5% new words and still have interesting content to read. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Zhuangzi Nonaglot Language Program Publisher Senior Member Canada lingq.com Joined 7031 days ago 646 posts - 688 votes Speaks: English*, French, Japanese, Swedish, Mandarin, Cantonese, German, Italian, Spanish Studies: Russian | Message 39 of 60 31 December 2007 at 11:18am | IP Logged | ||
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To say that massive input is a powerful means of language acquisition is not controversial. To say, as Krashen does, that specific grammar instruction and correction is not very useful is more controversial. As is his statement that output is not that important to language acquisition and that when we speak to native speakers it is still the listening rather than the speaking that is key.
But this conforms to my experience as a learner, and watching people learn. Only at a late date can one really make sense of the grammar rules, as one understands how they fit the patterns that one has observed in the language. Others like Nation stress the importance and efficacy of deliberate vocabulary learning, an approach much favoured by people cramming for exams. In my experience this is an important element in language learning, but only those words that are encountered through input are retained in the long run. Words learned from lists are quickly forgotten. One just does not get a handle on how they are used. There is no episodic memory of them, no emotional attachment. so efficient vocabulary review of words alrady discovered is beneficial. Krashen does not really touch on this. In saving words for study, each form of a word is best treated separately with its own set of example phrases of where and how the word occurs and in conjunction with which words. In reviewing these familiar examples one is reminded of familiar contexts and this helps to reinforce the learning of the structure of the language without explicit grammar rules and exercizes. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| leosmith Senior Member United States Joined 6553 days ago 2365 posts - 3804 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Tagalog | Message 40 of 60 03 January 2008 at 7:42pm | IP Logged | ||
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Is there an official definition of extensive/intensive reading, or are members of the forum the originators? Either way, it would be nice to stick a definition in the glossary...
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