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International Phonetic Alphabet | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : General discussion |  | |
| atamagaii Senior Member Anguilla Joined 6207 days ago 181 posts - 195 votes  Speaks: Apache* | Message 25 of 94 14 January 2008 at 1:03pm | IP Logged | |||||
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I've always found phonetic transcription EXTREMELY useful.
The above description of Russian vowels is not gibberish for me - maybe because I've read a few books on linguistics and plenty on phonetics - not as a professional, just a language learner. I always try to find a good phonetic description of the language I'm learning. It speeds the process incredibly. atamagaii (aka siomotteikiru) A little present for Polish learners of English: http://rapidshare.com/files/83056165/elements.7z.html (If you need a pass, look for it at englishtips) Edited by atamagaii on 14 January 2008 at 1:24pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| virgule Senior Member Antarctica Joined 6841 days ago 242 posts - 261 votes Studies: Korean | Message 26 of 94 14 January 2008 at 1:32pm | IP Logged | |||||
I'm not a linguist, but my understanding was always that the IPA is not normally used to represent exact sounds. By normally I refer to the use in dictionaries and language courses. I understand that there are more complex aspects of phonetics that can be written in the IPA, such as perhaps illustrated by the extract from Wikipedia on Russian. Having learnt a few letters of the the alphabet, I found it useful whenever I came across it. Much more useful than any ad-hoc system I know, and for many different languages. The alphabet may be English centred in the choice of symbols for the different sounds, but not in how it works. I found the IPA excellent to describe regional differences in English pronunciation, to pick up an example given; it requires a work where such differences are actually indicated, though. The biggest problem, perhaps, is that there are too many variations on the IPA (i.e. IPA-like systems).
Can you elaborate on this point? I have never come across such a statement, unless it was to describe how sound X (represented by IPA letter Y) is pronounced. I very often come across descriptions that sound X sounds like sound Z in a certain other language, only more this or less that. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| daristani Senior Member United States Joined 7145 days ago 752 posts - 1661 votes Studies: Uzbek | Message 27 of 94 14 January 2008 at 1:42pm | IP Logged | |||||
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I think that, in this discussion, we have to distinguish between trying to learn the pronunciation of a given language from the IPA (or a similar alphabet or transcription system) and merely using IPA as a graphic representation of the sounds of the language in question. It's the latter use that the IPA is intended for, and I think it succeeds in this fairly well.
Clearly if audio material is available, lots of listening and imitation will generally be the preferred way to develop as near a native-like pronunciation as possible, but even in this case there are still ways in which the IPA (or a similar system) can be helpful to language learners as well as to scientific linguists, particularly in learning the pronunciation of words we haven't heard before. In studying French or Italian, for instance, it can be hard to differentiate purely by ear between the "open e" and the "closed e" sounds, or the "open o" and "closed o" sounds especially as not all native speakers pronounce them all that clearly in all speech environments. A dictionary that shows the pronunciation in IPA can help the learner acquire the correct pronunciation. Likewise for irregular pronunciations, particularly in French (or English, where even native speakers mispronounce words they know only from written texts rather than everyday speech.) Even for basic English vocabulary, for instance, the IPA is useful in confirming for confused non-native learners the difference between the "voiced th" in "this" and the "unvoiced th" in "thin". So while some language learners seem to get along fine without the IPA or its equivalent, it seems to me that it can be a useful tool to clearly represent sounds on paper that might otherwise be ambiguous. Given the extraordinary range of sounds that exist in the world's languages, the IPA, and similar phonetic transcriptions, can become extremely complex. I don't think that, for most of us, it's necessary to "learn" the entire IPA system, but instead it suffices (for those inclined) just to become familiar with the symbols for the sounds of the language(s) we study, so that we can use it in cases when it would be helpful to us. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Zhuangzi Nonaglot Language Program Publisher Senior Member Canada lingq.com Joined 7029 days ago 646 posts - 688 votes Speaks: English*, French, Japanese, Swedish, Mandarin, Cantonese, German, Italian, Spanish Studies: Russian | Message 28 of 94 14 January 2008 at 2:51pm | IP Logged | |||||
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My interest is in what helps that average language learner to pronounce a new language well. I am not convinced that the IPA is helpful enough that I would recommend a learner go to the trouble of learning it.
The question is how can one help learners first of all to notice what they are listening to, and then to feel confident enough to reproduce it. As I said, often the learner can make the sound in isolation but not in context. I think we cannot isolate pronunciation from the whole context of language learning. We need pleasant contexts and a means to train the learner to notice. Chunking sounds from tapes as was discussed in another thread is a hopeful activity I feel. Whenever we can get the learner to take initiatives, rather than trying to explain things theoretically, I think the benefits are greater. So the IPA represents an abstract description of what we can or should be able to hear, just as grammar explanations represent abstractions of patterns that we need to discover on our own. At least that is my view, and the is the underlying philosophy of what we are developing at LingQ. We want to help learners become observant of the patterns of the language, whether structure or sound. We have a number of ideas that we are working on in terms of further enhancements but I do not see IPA as having a role. That said, many or most of our learners do use other resources, grammars, dictionaries, podcasts, and probably the IPA. They key is for the learner to explore the language in the way that works best for him or her. No single approach or resource can claim a monopoly on usefulness. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| leosmith Senior Member United States Joined 6551 days ago 2365 posts - 3804 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Tagalog | Message 29 of 94 14 January 2008 at 8:11pm | IP Logged | |||||
In every situation? That still sounds extreme to me. Not recommending IPA to a Thai learning English would be like not recommending pinyin to a Canadian learning Mandarin. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Zhuangzi Nonaglot Language Program Publisher Senior Member Canada lingq.com Joined 7029 days ago 646 posts - 688 votes Speaks: English*, French, Japanese, Swedish, Mandarin, Cantonese, German, Italian, Spanish Studies: Russian | Message 30 of 94 14 January 2008 at 8:49pm | IP Logged | |||||
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Let me clear, leosmith.
I do not think a Thai person needs to learn the IPA nor would get a meaningful return from learning the IPA if the goal was to learn English.English is essentially a phonetically written language, with irregularities but with a lot of patterns. The time of the learner is better spent listening to and reading English. This is not an extreme position. It is just my opinion, one that is shared with some here, and one which others, including you, disagree with. Not all views opposed to your own are "extreme". Pinyin is part of Mandarin. It is taught to Chinese children. It is the chosen phonetic script to use with Mandarin. Chinese is essentially not a phonetically written language. That is why pinyin is necessary. The vast majority of people who learn Mandarin today use pinyin, including Chinese people. The vast majority of people learning English do not learn IPA, unless I am mistaken. Edited by Zhuangzi on 14 January 2008 at 8:50pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| aljosa Diglot Newbie Slovenia Joined 6255 days ago 14 posts - 16 votes Speaks: Slovenian*, English Studies: German, Sanskrit, Ancient Greek | Message 32 of 94 14 January 2008 at 10:21pm | IP Logged | |||||
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Well, I like the IPA. It familiarises me with the sounds of the language and I always know what to expect. The time I spent learning really paid off - before I knew it, I couldn't aurally distinguish between the e and the æ sounds of English; in fact, I didn't even realise there were two e-like sounds in English, in spite of being exposed to English for more than 8 years. When I saw them transcribed, I eventually learned to hear the difference. The same goes for aspiration and the retaining of voicing at the end of words. While I eventually realized I've always been using that everything suddenly started to make much more sense. So it is far from useless.
And I really am sick of the annoying "like the ch in Scottish loch or German Bach" (by the way, are those REALLY the only words containing this sound that an English speaker knows?). Not to mention "like the ei sound in trade but a bit higher and without the glide". And "like the p in pay, but a bit smoother, almost like the b in bay". Why? WHY? It just annoys me. The IPA is a shortcut, and a very good one. Aljoša the a is like the a in "bad", but a bit lower in the mouth, nearing the a in "father", but shorter that the "father" sound the l is a clear l, like in "love", never like in "ball" the j is the y sound of the word "yes" the o is like the o sound in "born", but shorter and a bit higher in the mouth, nearing the sound in "Lou" the š is the sh sound of "ship" the final a sound is the same as the first one Oh, the stress falls on the second syllable. Using the British pronounciation the nearest approximation is arl-yor-shar. Now, let's try that with the IPA, shall we? /al'joʃa/ 2 persons have voted this message useful |
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