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International Phonetic Alphabet | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : General discussion |  | |
| Zhuangzi Nonaglot Language Program Publisher Senior Member Canada lingq.com Joined 7030 days ago 646 posts - 688 votes  Speaks: English*, French, Japanese, Swedish, Mandarin, Cantonese, German, Italian, Spanish Studies: Russian | Message 41 of 94 15 January 2008 at 10:23am | IP Logged | ||
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For the average person, studying verb conjugations does not bring about fluency any more than the IPA ensures "perfect" pronunciation.
Most listening is done on portable devices or when talking to people, and not at the computer. For English and a few other languages it may be useful to have the IPA to know how a word one encounters in reading is pronounced, when looking it up in the dictionary. Mostly it is not. The problem people have with pronunciation, however, is not primarily that they do not know how this or that word is pronounced. It is that they cannot imitate the pronunciation of the native, or come close enough to it, even for words that they theoretically know how to pronounce. I started this thread to try to understand why some people here favour the IPA. I have not heard any compelling arguments for it. Some people agreed with me and I have no idea what the view is amongst all those following this thread. I also have no idea if it is considered interesting. I am interested in the subject and do not need to ask for the permission of "leserables" to start a thread. I asked the same question of our learners at the LingQ Forum and so far no one recommends using the IPA for language learning, even those who know it. Oh, and I do enjoy sparring and find it a useful way to refine one's ideas. The lack of tolerance for diversity of opinions among the self important guardians of orthodoxy here is surprising. Reminds me of political correctness at universities. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| bushwick Tetraglot Senior Member Netherlands Joined 6246 days ago 407 posts - 443 votes Speaks: German, Croatian*, English, Dutch Studies: French, Japanese | Message 42 of 94 15 January 2008 at 10:36am | IP Logged | ||
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i suppose you somehow misunderstood the point of the IPA.
no one ever said that it ensures "perfect" pronunciation... nor was it devised as an effective study guide to pronunciation. it was merely devised as a tool in the study of phonetics. it was only later on applied to study, and some people use, some don't. either way, they still have to hear the individual sounds in order to be able to pronounce them, something you propose (listening as a tool) and this is certainly useful, as i said before, for languages like english which are irregular. well, for some people at least, i never used the IPA. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Art07 Groupie Russian Federation Joined 6216 days ago 61 posts - 64 votes Speaks: Russian* | Message 44 of 94 15 January 2008 at 12:31pm | IP Logged | ||
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It seems that Zhuangzi isn't interested what others think if it is not in accordance with his views; his tactic seems to be the more post I produce with the word of LingQ, the better for my business.
--- The IPA isn't intended solely for language studing and to get perfect pronunciation. The ordinary people know the IPA mostly because of one of its usages, namele Use in dictionaries. Please read Wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IPA. Think of this example: the word "wind". You can use all the gadgets to get _the idea_ of how to prounce it, but knowing the IPA and having a good dictionary would tell you that: wind I [wind] II [waind] If we are discussing the word "wind" in this forum, how we are supposed to convey the notion of its pronunciation? I mean the simplest way. Edited by Art07 on 15 January 2008 at 12:31pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Zhuangzi Nonaglot Language Program Publisher Senior Member Canada lingq.com Joined 7030 days ago 646 posts - 688 votes Speaks: English*, French, Japanese, Swedish, Mandarin, Cantonese, German, Italian, Spanish Studies: Russian | Message 45 of 94 15 January 2008 at 12:44pm | IP Logged | ||
Leserables, Why do you assume that all of my comments are directed at you. Here is the reference to "perfect" pronunciation. I raised portable listening devices because you implied that the option to using the IPA in dictionaries was sitting at the computer. I do not expect people to change their views because of my arguments, but it seems that you and Art feel that if I do not accept your explanations then I am not interested in them. I am interested them. I read them looking for persuasive arguments, but I do not find any arguments that would make me change my mind. It is childish to be offended that someone is not persuaded by your arguments. People see things differently. They do not all have to conform to some higher orthodoxy. Art, The best way to get to know the different ways of using and pronouncing "wind" as in West wind, and "wind" as in wind up the clock, is to hear them often in meaningful contexts and to discover these patterns yourself. Looking something up in a dictionary is, in my experience, a decontextualized activity, the result of which is unlikely to stay in one's memory for very long. As to my mention of my activity at LingQ, I know that annoys both of you, but it is a large part of what I do. If I am told that I am not allowed to mention it here I will stop doing so. But I think that would hypocritical since 1) it is not secret that I am involved with it and 2) others regularly talk about the tools they are using. In the meantime all your whining about my mention of LingQ is somewhat annoying to me but does not really add much value to your comments. Edited by Zhuangzi on 15 January 2008 at 12:55pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| slucido Bilingual Diglot Senior Member Spain https://goo.gl/126Yv Joined 6677 days ago 1296 posts - 1781 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Spanish*, Catalan* Studies: English | Message 46 of 94 15 January 2008 at 1:13pm | IP Logged | ||
That's an interesting one. What kind of argument will change your mind? What characteristics do this persuasive arguments need to show? 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| atamagaii Senior Member Anguilla Joined 6208 days ago 181 posts - 195 votes Speaks: Apache* | Message 47 of 94 15 January 2008 at 1:29pm | IP Logged | ||
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By the way, how do you pronounce LingQ?
Would you please make a recording and post it on YouTube? And how do you pronounce YouTube? Edited by atamagaii on 15 January 2008 at 1:34pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Art07 Groupie Russian Federation Joined 6216 days ago 61 posts - 64 votes Speaks: Russian* | Message 48 of 94 15 January 2008 at 1:30pm | IP Logged | ||
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slucido
> What kind of argument will change your mind? > What characteristics do this persuasive arguments need to show? I think the first step is to become a member of LingQ. The second step is to become a paid member of LingQ. I think only after these two steps Zhuangzi would start to listen to somebody. :-) 2 persons have voted this message useful |
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