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International Phonetic Alphabet | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : General discussion |  | |
| Julie Heptaglot Senior Member PolandRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 6905 days ago 1251 posts - 1733 votes  5 sounds Speaks: Polish*, EnglishB2, GermanC2, SpanishB2, Dutch, Swedish, French | Message 57 of 94 15 January 2008 at 6:41pm | IP Logged | ||
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Considering that during my English education I kept hearing/reading I should pronounce TH in "this" like Z, V or like D, it's a real miracle I pronounce it fairly correctly by now.
No matter how strong a teacher would forbid the beginners to write down the pronunciation, some of them would do it anyway. It's important to tell them: "it's neither Z nor V, nor D. It's a sound that doesn't exist in Polish". In this moment the teacher can introduce the IPA symbol for voiced TH so that students can use it in their notes. It makes them aware of the fact that it's a new sound which may be similar to Polish ones but does differ from them. It doesn't really matter how they mark it (they could instead of using IPA draw a little flower over every voiced TH). The important is they don't write Z, V or D. However, introducing IPA in this moment really doesn't hurt and may be more useful in the future than developing artistic talents in the field of still life. The example with notes shows in my opinion that there are language learners that have the need for some kind of a visual representation of the learning material. Some of them write stuff down just because they don't have a recording, some of them because they find the pronunciation more clear or easier to remember this way. Zhuangzi, there is a term in your posts you keep using: "average language learner". I'm not sure what it means. There are of course some statistics where you'd probably find e.g. that x% of people are rather visual than auditive learners (and vice versa). But it's important to remember that there are many different learning styles and what seems completely useless to you can be very helpful for another person. It's not about being right, it's about finding a method that is good for you (or for me, or for other people). And you seem to understand it perfectly as you've written: "They key is for the learner to explore the language in the way that works best for him or her. No single approach or resource can claim a monopoly on usefulness." But you've written as well: "I started this thread to try to understand why some people here favour the IPA. I have not heard any compelling arguments for it." In my opinion just the fact that there are some people that find the IPA useful in language learning is a sufficient argument for it. It means that IPA can be useful for somebody - even it's certainly not for you. --- Have you found a mistake in my post? I'll appreciate it if you send me a PM - I'd like to improve my English. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| CaitO'Ceallaigh Triglot Senior Member United States katiekelly.wordpress Joined 6859 days ago 795 posts - 829 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish, Russian Studies: Czech, German | Message 58 of 94 16 January 2008 at 11:56am | IP Logged | ||
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I agree with Julie very much.
I listened to Russian for years, I was always told I had a great ear, and then a Russian teacher enlightened me. She didn't use the IPA, but she did teach me from scratch how to pronounce Russian, using symbols of her own. At the time, I didn't even know of the IPA (I mean, beyond what I'd seen in dictionaries, and never as a learning tool), and I wonder if she did, either. Learning that my accent left much to be desired was a terrible blow to my ego, but perhaps the best lesson in Russian that I ever got. You can listen and listen, but what you see on the page isn't necessarily what is said. It's the same in any language. It's more than the IPA, though, and it's more than listening. It's learning how to move your mouth in a new way. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| edwin Triglot Senior Member Canada towerofconfusi&Registered users can see my Skype Name Joined 6466 days ago 160 posts - 183 votes 9 sounds Speaks: Cantonese*, English, Mandarin Studies: French, Spanish, Portuguese | Message 59 of 94 16 January 2008 at 12:25pm | IP Logged | ||
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I think IPA is an overkill for learning English (and possibly any other languages).
Let's take Julie's example: to learn the 'th' sound which does not exist in polish. I can learn it in two ways. I can learn the complete IPA system, learn how to pronounce all the IPA sounds (many of which are not in English) and write 'theta' down. Or I just write 'th' down and learn how to pronounce it in English. Notice in the latter case, I can still learn to pronounce it correctly without knowing IPA. Same goes to the 'a', 'ae', and 'e' sounds. I can learn the differences without knowing the entire IPA. But then I may need someone to explain them to me. In my opinion, IPA is useful for linguistic experts. For average learners, we do not need to learn the entire system. My feeling is that many of us who find IPA useful in learning English only learn or use a small subset of it (especially those who learnt it in 5 minutes). 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Julie Heptaglot Senior Member PolandRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 6905 days ago 1251 posts - 1733 votes 5 sounds Speaks: Polish*, EnglishB2, GermanC2, SpanishB2, Dutch, Swedish, French | Message 60 of 94 16 January 2008 at 12:35pm | IP Logged | ||
Nobody in this thread has ever claimed that he finds learning the entire IPA system useful in language learning. This would be a real overkill. In my opinion it may be useful to learn both symbols for "th". It may be useful to learn all the IPA symbols needed in phonemic transcription of the sounds in the target language. But clearly there is no point in mastering the IPA including the sounds that don't exist in the language we learn. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6599 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 61 of 94 16 January 2008 at 12:45pm | IP Logged | ||
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| Julie Heptaglot Senior Member PolandRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 6905 days ago 1251 posts - 1733 votes 5 sounds Speaks: Polish*, EnglishB2, GermanC2, SpanishB2, Dutch, Swedish, French | Message 62 of 94 16 January 2008 at 12:50pm | IP Logged | ||
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In Poland we also have a standard transcription system, called "the Slavic transcription", however for obvious reasons based on the Latin alphabet. Students of Polish philology are supposed to know it (along with the IPA).
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| edwin Triglot Senior Member Canada towerofconfusi&Registered users can see my Skype Name Joined 6466 days ago 160 posts - 183 votes 9 sounds Speaks: Cantonese*, English, Mandarin Studies: French, Spanish, Portuguese | Message 63 of 94 16 January 2008 at 12:59pm | IP Logged | ||
So do you agree with me that for typical language learners (as contrast to linguist experts), it does not worth the pain of learning the entire IPA? If this is the case, can't we learn to pronounce the sounds as we encounter them? In your example, after I learn how to pronounce 'th' by putting my tongue between my teeth, I will know it thereafter. I don't need to know what 'theta' in IPA is. Correct? Then if I were to learn a new sound in a new language, I only need someone to teach me how to place my tongue, etc. I don't need the IPA symbols to confuse me. Right? Here is another point. If IPA promises to represent all the sounds in all languages accurately, it might worth the pain to learn it. But in reality, it cannot. You would have to learn how to pronounce certain sounds in their own languages anyway. So why bother learning this 'pseudo-universal' pronunciation system? 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| CaitO'Ceallaigh Triglot Senior Member United States katiekelly.wordpress Joined 6859 days ago 795 posts - 829 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish, Russian Studies: Czech, German | Message 64 of 94 16 January 2008 at 1:11pm | IP Logged | ||
It was a chart that you see at the front of all the text books, that we all think we know, but we really don't. I had to go home, practice these basic sounds, then tongue twisters, poetry, and the like, and come back every week 'til I got it right. I had to relearn everything. She was a former art critic and model from St. Petersburg, a very interesting lady. Her daughter is a published poet and was working on her Ph.D. at UC Berkeley. She was living in a two room apartment in a sketchy neighborhood in Oakland, but when you walked in her door, it was like traveling to another place in time. I agree that to get pronunciation right does take a certain level of open mindedness, which is why I'm still open minded to the IPA! 1 person has voted this message useful |
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