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Heinrich Schliemann’s memorizing method | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Polyglots |  | |
| pentatonic Senior Member United States Joined 7246 days ago 221 posts - 245 votes  | Message 41 of 63 06 March 2008 at 7:06pm | IP Logged | ||
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I have never memorized a book, but have memorized quite a few dialogs from FSI and Assimil. I see benefits and drawbacks and am not convinced yet that memorization is more effective than other study methods. Memorization to me is sort of like extreme overlearning. There have been studies (a recent post touches on this subject is here) that seem to prove that overlearning is not the most efficient way to learn. The early retention levels when overlearning are very favorable, but over time the difference from a minimalistic approach seems to reduce and then level out. In other words, with enough spaced-review (needed by both approaoches) the information will be remembered without the extra time spent on overlearning.
Supermemo uses the minimalist concept and it works well. However, it can be very frustrating in the beginning because you feel like you don't remember the material or it's very foggy, until one day it just sticks. However, this doesn't work very well when something needs to be learned in a short amount of time. I have put a good deal of thought and research into the idea of learning through memorization, and so I'll try to share some of what I've found without rambling too much. (Warning, very long post follows) Mr. Schliemann is not the only one who claims to have learned a language this way. For those who read German, here is an article (and translation) written by someone who says he learned English through the lyrics of his favorite songs. He then applied this method to French by memorizing a language course. He doesn't give the name of course because he says it's no longer available, but it had 21 lessons when combining the beginner and advanced courses and this gave him a vocabulary of more than 3000 words. It takes him upwards to an hour and a half to run back through the course mentally, and he does this to refresh the language before visiting France. He gives tips on what to use when a language course is not available. He claims that memorizing a text is easier than learning a word list. Pros and cons I can see many benefits for memorizing material. It strengthens/exercises your memory. All you really need is a language course, time, and discipline. You can practice your memorized material anywhere and take advantage of "lost time". If you got in the habit of reciting a few dialogs while in the shower or mumbled through one while brushing your teeth, that would probably be enough to keep things fresh (the dialogs, and maybe your breath too). And, memorizing really helps you assimilate and internalize the vocabulary and structures contained in the material. Take the Assimil courses that are so popular around here. Some people obviously can assimilate better than others. Our own Fanatic has no problem picking up a language from them and using it at a high level. While others achieve much lower levels of mastery. What's the difference? Language talent is certainly a factor, but maybe it's also the level of internalization; the time spent on the course and focus. I think everything is there for basic fluency. It's how well the material is mastered that probably makes the biggest difference. Memorization forces you to analyze and retain on a level that you otherwise might not reach, but there are other methods that are probably just as effective. Shadowing repeatedly results in memorization, at least at a low level, and constant review with or without an SRS program can also get you there. There are drawbacks. It's difficult and time consuming work. It's necessary to review often so that you don't lose your hard-earned achievements. Our German friend mentioned above uses a Pimsleur like system for spacing his reviews. Doing this, or using your lost time takes discipline. Most people would find it difficult to maintain such a schedule. Groups who memorize There a groups of people who memorize dialogs and written material routinely. Memory palaces have been mentioned and memory competitors are sometimes asked to memorize a dialog or poem. You can be sure they have a well-rehearsed system for doing so, but as far as I know the champs aren't sharing how they do it. Another group memorizes passages from the bible or some other religious text. They call it scripture memory and there is a lot of information on the net about the why and the how. Here are some videos that one SuperMemo user put together on how he uses the program to retain his scripture. There is also a surprising amount of software for memorizing and keeping scripture, and here is a free program that is quite good which incorporates several clever ideas. It's geared towards the bible, but if you're creative you can use it for language learning too. It doesn't handle non-English characters very well in some modes. As has been mentioned in this thread, actors have to memorize scripts all the time and they have developed several techniques for doing so. I'll give some that I remember below. What strikes me as different about the above-mentioned groups from us language learners is that they are memorizing text in their native language. This makes things much easier and makes it possible to use audio that you've never heard before. This can be done with a foreign language, but it would seem to me that it would only be feasible after you've reached a certain level of mastery. Memorization techniques Most of these come from actors, but the first is a mnemonic technique. OK, so one technique is to develop an abstract image or idea for each the main parts of the text and link them together with one of the various mnemonic methods. The idea is to give you a clue as to what's next in case you get stuck and to help you avoid leaving out whole sections as can sometimes happen. Generally, once you remember the clue, the associated text comes back easily. Another technique is to use good ol' flashcards. There are several ways to do this, but I would put a couple of sentences on each card, or even a whole paragraph if it's not too big. You could put the translation on the other side, but I probably would just put the next paragraph. Chunks of text about the size they are broken down in Assimil courses would be good, but you should experiment to see what works for you. Another method that actors use is to read their script with a partner. The reason is obvious for an actor, but this could also be done when memorizing a foreign language, especially if you know someone who is learning the same language as you. You could alternate the different parts until you both have the material down pat. Yet another technique is to use audio. Actors might record the material themselves, but unless you're at a pretty high level already, it would probably be best to use prerecorded material spoken by natives. I've memorized whole Assimil dialogs by listening to them in a loop, but hearing the same thing over and over for an hour can grate on your nerves. Better is to break the material into segments that are about 20-30 seconds long, so that you learn the material quicker and can then change to something new. One actor reads the whole script into his tape recorder, but reads his sections at a low volume. He then plays the recording and attempts to speak his lines as they occur. Should he forget them, he can then turn up the volume and hear what he should've said. The same could be done with every other line of a recorded dialog. The volume could be reduced with software, and two versions could be made which alternate which sentences are quieted so that all sentences can be practiced. A similar idea would be to make audio flash cards. These might start with a sentence or two followed by enough silence to say the following sentence. Then the missing sentence would play as a way to verify how correct you were. All this would require time and skill with audio-editing software. Perhaps simply using the pause button as you work your way through a recording would be good enough. Audio is about the only way to learn something new while commuting, and can make a walk or other exercise every more productive than it already is. Best material Mr. Schliemann memorized books but it seems to me that a language course with dialogs would be better. Courses are designed to introduce vocabulary and language structure/patterns in a steady and organized manner. They are usually much smaller, so that those with modest goals could more easily reach the level they want while still being exposed to a balanced set of language concepts. Perhaps a reader would be a good compromise. They do repeat vocabulary a lot but so do language courses, and they are also geared towards language learners. Finding a reader with audio would be important IMHO. I looked at a few German courses that contain dialogs and here are some that seem to be suitable (yes, I know I have way too many courses): - Hugo in 3 months series: 11 dialogs - Living Language all audio: 35 lessons with 1, sometimes 2 dialogs per lesson - Immersion Plus: 7 dialogs that are bigger in size - An old Cortina "in 20 lessons" course (can you get the audio for these?): 20 lessons with longish dialogs; later lessons are nothing but a big dialog - Practice and Improve your German, Plus: 51 scenes - FSI I: 75 dialogs - FSI II: 44 dialogs - Assimil with Ease: 100 dialogs - Assimil Perfectionnement: 56 dialogs Finding a course to match your language goals from the above list shouldn't be too hard. 12 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| JasonChoi Diglot Senior Member Korea, South Joined 6358 days ago 274 posts - 298 votes Speaks: English*, Korean Studies: Mandarin, Cantonese, Latin | Message 42 of 63 07 March 2008 at 3:33am | IP Logged | ||
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Currently, I'm learning Latin, and I've been using Schliemann's approach using Lingua Latina. The first few chapters are simple and filled with frequently repeated grammatical forms and vocabulary. I've found this to be quite useful for my needs, as the book is a reader, and I have the supplementary audio.
Moreover, I've only been memorizing 2 paragraphs of text a day, so as to not overwhelm myself, with occasional review each day. I'm beginning to think that memorizing entire books isn't as important as the practice of reciting sentences based on visual imagery, which works quite well for me. Also, I've changed my focus off of long-term retention. Ultimately, I'm satisfied if I can state something correctly, even if it is not necessary the way it's written in the book (since word-order can change quite in Latin). Thus, for the sake of short term memorizing, try to recite verbatim; yet with long term retention, I just want to be able to say things properly. Pentatonic, thanks for sharing by the way :) Edited by JasonChoi on 07 March 2008 at 3:34am 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Thuan Triglot Senior Member GermanyRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 6929 days ago 133 posts - 156 votes Speaks: Vietnamese, German*, English Studies: French, Japanese, Romanian, Swedish, Mandarin | Message 43 of 63 07 March 2008 at 10:46am | IP Logged | ||
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@pentatonic: Thanks for the long post. I did memorize quite a few chapters from Assimil Japanese by accident, because I shadowed some passages well over 50 times. And it had an tremendous effect on my Japanese. So I'm thinking about using this method more often. (I'm actually memorizing an essay from "Read Real Japanese" right now).
Problem was the question how to review a memorized text. The approach shown in the supermemo video is great. I'm gonna adopt that system for my Japanese studies. Are any other programs for memorization of texts? The scripture memory system is nice, something that I could recommend to other people. People that don't like to work with Supermemo (because it looks like too much work). The games and different options in this bible program make it look more entertaining. Too bad that you can't put your own audio files in there. Of the German resources that you have, which one would you recommend for a person who needs to get to a decent level of German in a shortest amount of time (one month)? This person has already studied German for two years and passed the DSH test. The communication skills are still lacking, so I thought about recommending the memorization method to acquire lots of stock phrases in a short time (coupled with shadowing). Assimil would be my choice, but it takes rather long to finish the 100 chapters. Have yet to get my hands on any of the other programs. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| pentatonic Senior Member United States Joined 7246 days ago 221 posts - 245 votes | Message 44 of 63 07 March 2008 at 12:49pm | IP Logged | ||
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The only programs I've seen written specifically for memorizing text have to do with bible study. Most are commercial (not expensive) but another free one is Inverse. I don't think it supports audio either.
Re improving your friends communication skills: IMO, the best course that I've seen to shadow would be the "Practice and Improve your German" course, but it's no longer in print and is hard to get. Assimil would my next choice and it should be fine for his/her needs. Deutsche Welle also has some excellent podcasts that would provide good material for shadowing. I think you're on the right track for helping your friend. If he has already passed the DSH then he already has a good command of the language. He just needs to practice it. You don't mention which area he needs work on, so if it's speaking fluently, I would have him shadow a lot. He can shadow Assimil, or a podcast, or even an audio book. Also, I would suggest you have long conversations with him. Let him stumble through as best he can and resist the temptation to correct him. When he's finished a thought, then tell him what he did wrong or how you would have said the same thing. You can even record the conversation and then go over it with him later. Give him a copy so he can work on his weaknesses. If his pronunciation needs work then I would suggest chorusing. Maxb has posted good information on chorusing on this forum. If he can just take one dialog towards the end of Assimil and chorus it until he can nail it perfectly, it should do wonders for his pronunciation. If his weakness is listening comprehension, then I would suggest having him transcribe an interview or some other long audio of conversation. NDR Info Der Talk would be a good choice. I don't think they provide a transcript and this is probably good so he won't be tempted to peek. Let him work through an interview and then correct his mistakes. And if you ever do compile a list of stock phrases for him, PM me. I'd love to see what you come up with :) 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| William Camden Hexaglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 6271 days ago 1936 posts - 2333 votes Speaks: English*, German, Spanish, Russian, Turkish, French | Message 45 of 63 08 March 2008 at 10:59am | IP Logged | ||
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I mentioned on another thread some time ago that actors seem, as a group, to be above-average at language learning. Their script memorising techniques, I suspect, resemble this kind of memorising. I have experimented with memorising dialogues (not entire books or even chapters) and then recalling them later. It is neither a useless method nor is it a miraculous solution to language learning difficulties. It is somewhere in between these two extremes.
1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| JasonChoi Diglot Senior Member Korea, South Joined 6358 days ago 274 posts - 298 votes Speaks: English*, Korean Studies: Mandarin, Cantonese, Latin | Message 46 of 63 13 March 2008 at 9:16am | IP Logged | ||
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For those interested, the link method is a good way to recall a story.
http://www.mindtools.com/pages/article/newTIM_01.htm Basically, what I do is get my 1st image which represents something I want to say in the target language, then I literally connect it to a second image, and see both images meshed together at the same time for 5-10 seconds. Then I connect the 2nd image to a 3rd image and repeat. The idea is that the first image would allow me to see the 2nd one, which would then let me see the 3rd one, and so on. This removes the need to use the memory palace, or any other intermediary images to recall a story, since each properly linked image leads right into the next. In other words, each image would remind me of what I want to express in the target language. I hope this helps anyone who may still be memorizing ;) 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| shapd Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 6148 days ago 126 posts - 208 votes Speaks: English* Studies: German, Italian, Spanish, Latin, Modern Hebrew, French, Russian | Message 47 of 63 13 March 2008 at 5:11pm | IP Logged | ||
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If you really want to memorise connected text, poems are usually easier, since they are designed to be read aloud, have a fixed structure and memorable imagery. After all, Homer was recited from memory for centuries before being written down, and it is still a mark of honour to be able to recite the entire Qur'an from memory. Even I memorised large amounts of poetry for my school English exams.
In a similar vein, the bible readings in synagogue are chanted in a sing song melody which also serves as a mnemonic reminder, and the very religious also say the normal prayers accompanied by a rhythmic swaying of the body which breaks up the lines into sections and also helps memory. The Talmud is memorised in discussion to make the process more active. It is possible to memorise much more than we bother to these days. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| William Camden Hexaglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 6271 days ago 1936 posts - 2333 votes Speaks: English*, German, Spanish, Russian, Turkish, French | Message 48 of 63 16 October 2008 at 6:15am | IP Logged | ||
I agree. Mnemonics was a big thing in the Renaissance, and past cultures often had a great deal of oral poetry, with people able to memorise and recite thousands of lines of verse, and pass it on to other people to memorise, all without it being written down. 1 person has voted this message useful |
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