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Are Japanese natives generally exclusive? | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Specific Languages | ( Topic Closed) |  |
| bitterbug Newbie Canada atommo.com Joined 5551 days ago 6 posts - 7 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Japanese | Message 25 of 66 15 September 2009 at 11:57pm | IP Logged | |||||
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I might have read this from a biased source but maybe someone else can confirm. It said that Cambodian is a very literal language, with little flexibility. Phrases would translate to "Go house." "Get water." "Come now."
That wouldn't seem to provide a lot of opportunity for incorporating idioms from other languages. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| hombre gordo Triglot Senior Member Japan Joined 5584 days ago 184 posts - 247 votes  Speaks: English*, Spanish, Japanese Studies: Portuguese, Korean | Message 26 of 66 16 September 2009 at 12:10am | IP Logged | |||||
What I wanted to say in my previous post when I mentioned that I was under the impression that all languages have equal power of expression was not that I believe that you can mirror something absolutely the same in all langages. You clearly cannot with distant/unrelated languages. If you Just make direct calques you will of course sound unnatural. What I wanted to say is that you can just about always express the same idea even if you don't do it literally and still keep the nuance. For example let's take a look at some fixed expression/idioms. English "When in Rome do as the Romans do" Japanese 郷に入っては郷に従え (same nuance/proverb. lit. If you enter the town obey by the town) English "Every dog has his day" Japanese 犬も歩けば棒に当たる (same meaning. lit. If even a dog walks he will hit the pole) English "Don't trust a stranger" Japanese 人を見たら泥棒と思え (same meaning. lit. When you see a person, think of that person as a theif!) As you see, they all have some kind of equivilant, just expressed differently but no more or no less capable of expressing the nuance. For me there is no need to code-switch if you know the equivalent expression. For the language learner in particular, not relying on code-switching and mastering these differences by finding an equivalent though non-literal expression is a part of complete mastery of both languages. I myself have spent some time in classes on translation, and ever since taking an interest in those classes I really have started to appreciate the importance of learning the differences of the nuances between several languages as well as how to render fixed and idiomatic expressions into another distant language while at the sametime maintaining some standard of naturalness. Maybe if you get into code-switching too much, your language skills may actually suffer as a consequence. As a concrete example of people's language development suffering because of excess code-switching, have you ever heard about the educational concerns regarding young bilingual hispanics who have inadequate mastery of both languages because they rely too much on code-switching? As for my own situation, I don't think that these people were intentionally trying to insult me, but they wouldn't seem to respect my request when I politely asked them to speak to me normally which I find quite disrespectful. Back then I was too polite to speak my mind in a serious manner. Now I have become a more assertive individual. Maybe they were just some typical gaijin obsessed fetishists who cannot help but get some kind of kick out of it? Who knows? I have only had 2 Japanese host families but I was quite disappointed with them both for numerous reasons, this reason included. That is why if I meet this kind of situation again, I intend not to tolerate it. I will tell them directly that they are causing me annoyance by treating me differently. If I come across as rude then I am sorry. But I still have to do it. Also I cannot take serious people who inappropriately code-switch. Edited by hombre gordo on 16 September 2009 at 12:16am 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| maaku Senior Member United States Joined 5575 days ago 359 posts - 562 votes Speaks: English* | Message 27 of 66 16 September 2009 at 1:44am | IP Logged | |||||
I disagree with this, and I think it'll have to remain at that. 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| lancemanion Triglot Senior Member United States Joined 5573 days ago 150 posts - 166 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish, Thai Studies: French, Mandarin, Japanese | Message 28 of 66 16 September 2009 at 2:05am | IP Logged | |||||
Is it possible that they can tell you don't understand them, or that you get openly frustrated with them when they speak normally? That would explain their behavior better. Japanese are generally very polite, and usually try to avoid upsetting people, or try to save people from losing face. 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| hombre gordo Triglot Senior Member Japan Joined 5584 days ago 184 posts - 247 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish, Japanese Studies: Portuguese, Korean | Message 29 of 66 16 September 2009 at 9:10pm | IP Logged | |||||
No don't I think that it was a possiblity. Even back then I understood Japanese conversation clearly about 99 percent of the time. Besides like I said before a group consisting of 4 people were the only ones who ever did it. Every other Japanese person I spoke to spoke normally. I think they were just strange people. What got me confused was that they would also use fake words which are not valid loanwords (meaning an average Japanese speaker wouldn't understand them). One for example was ピックアップします instead of 迎えに来る. Sometimes I think to myself whether they were in fact trying to sabotage my Japanese! Edited by hombre gordo on 16 September 2009 at 9:44pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| hombre gordo Triglot Senior Member Japan Joined 5584 days ago 184 posts - 247 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish, Japanese Studies: Portuguese, Korean | Message 30 of 66 16 September 2009 at 9:39pm | IP Logged | |||||
Well if were true that you cannot maintain the nuance in another language, then how native speakers of that language communicate the same thought with each other? They never have a major problem do they? Well if I cannot convince you that code-switching is not really that necessary and may have some negative aspects and if I cannot convince you on any of the previous points I have made, we'll just have to accept that our opinions differ on the issue. If you really like code-switching for some reason then that's fine. But I don't think it is fine when people do it to me, regrardless of what the language pairs are. It is just too strange and makes me feel unfomfortable. Like I have said before, it can make some people feel uncomfortable. Remember that it is always important to consider the feelings of the people around you, not only with regards to languages, but in general. Edited by hombre gordo on 16 September 2009 at 9:40pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| cathrynm Senior Member United States junglevision.co Joined 6126 days ago 910 posts - 1232 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Japanese, Finnish | Message 31 of 66 16 September 2009 at 10:27pm | IP Logged | |||||
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>One for example was ピックアップします instead of 迎えに来る. Sometimes I think to myself
>whether they were in fact trying to sabotage my Japanese! It's pretty common for Japanese people who have been in the USA a long time to drift into a language that's like this -- that is Japanese grammar jumbled up with English nouns. I met some elderly ladies at the local temple and they often spoke exactly like this. I mentioned this to my Japanese instructor and she said she was consciously making an effort not to talk this way. It sounds like you are hearing the early stages of this transformation. 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| hombre gordo Triglot Senior Member Japan Joined 5584 days ago 184 posts - 247 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish, Japanese Studies: Portuguese, Korean | Message 32 of 66 16 September 2009 at 11:52pm | IP Logged | |||||
I find it difficult to believe that someone will all of a sudden lose to ability to avoid jumbling their native language with another after a stay in another country. When I came back from Japan and from Spain I didn't experience any interference from those languages in my native language and during my trips I spoke nothing but Japanese and Spanish the whole time! I cannot help but think that these people who supposedly "cannot control" interference from their second language seem to be like pretentious language showoffs who seek to anounce to everyone that they can speak X, Y language and Z language. Please guys, I know that some of us language learners are really talented, but can't we still be humble about it? I myself have done some investigating about this phenomena. Some of my Japanese friends told me that some Japanese people do this when speaking to foreigners because they have an inferiority complex and want to seem more western. Maybe it is just a case of 西洋崇拝主義. I personally would like to see Japanese restored back to how it was in the good old days before the influx of western influence. Well I say good old days, maybe the good old days only in a linguistic sense. The "good old days" minus the military rule and brutal colonization. 1 person has voted this message useful |
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