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 Language Learning Forum : Language Learning Log |  | |
| ellasevia Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2011 Senior Member Germany Joined 5991 days ago 2150 posts - 3229 votes  Speaks: English*, German, Croatian, Greek, French, Spanish, Russian, Swedish, Portuguese, Turkish, Italian Studies: Catalan, Persian, Mandarin, Japanese, Romanian, Ukrainian | Message 49 of 265 07 October 2009 at 1:39am | IP Logged | |||||
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Random comment time!
I've always thought that my language level standards were low compared to many, but I've begun to doubt that... I have seen quite a few people on this forum claiming some high level of proficiency in English (native fluency, advanced fluency, basic fluency, even) where I don't think that they deserve that title at all. I have been wondering if my standards are instead higher than average on this forum. For example, I just read a post by a person (native language is Portuguese) who claims native fluency in English. I would have assessed them as "intermediate," or perhaps basic fluency. Maybe. What do you think? What are your standards? Here is the post (not to point names, or anything) that I found that spurred me to write this. Note that this person claims native fluency in English, but I vehemently disagree.
EDIT: Another comment: my Italian is better than this person's English (well, I should hope) and I would rate myself as a high intermediate level in Italian... Edited by ellasevia on 07 October 2009 at 1:42am 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| anamsc Triglot Senior Member Andorra Joined 6052 days ago 296 posts - 382 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish, Catalan Studies: Arabic (Levantine), Arabic (Written), French | Message 50 of 265 07 October 2009 at 2:10am | IP Logged | |||||
I was actually recently thinking the same thing! It seems like on this forum, people are quick to say that they have "native fluency", but then they make very clear non-native mistakes. To be honest, I sometimes find this discouraging, because in a forum full of language lovers I still have yet to find somebody who has achieved native fluency --even in writing-- in English (which has tons of materials and gives lots of opportunities for exposure) without growing up in an English-speaking country or having English-speaking parents. That's why that thread about achieving native fluency left me quite skeptic, to say the least. I'm starting to not believe that it's possible to achieve native fluency in any foreign language :(. Anyways, I think in most cases it's best to underestimate your abilities and wait for speakers of your target language to be pleasantly surprised (which I think Farber mentions in his book) than the other way around. By the way, I realize I'm just posting randomly in your log without ever having introduced myself, so sorry if this is awkward! :). But I have been following your log and I am very impressed with your skills and dedication, and also I really liked your comment. Keep up the good work you do with language learning, you're an inspiration! 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| ellasevia Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2011 Senior Member Germany Joined 5991 days ago 2150 posts - 3229 votes Speaks: English*, German, Croatian, Greek, French, Spanish, Russian, Swedish, Portuguese, Turkish, Italian Studies: Catalan, Persian, Mandarin, Japanese, Romanian, Ukrainian | Message 51 of 265 07 October 2009 at 6:10am | IP Logged | |||||
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Tuesday: French
Goal: 1 lesson of Ultimate French Achieved: yes Well, I got up and did my vocabulary for French, which was conveniently already all typed up (yay for last night's productivity!). I finished early and did a quite a bit of reading for World History, yay. I went to school and lalala. French was boring. A small brawl broke out between two twin brothers in my class right in front of my teacher and she didn't even notice... Wow, she's oblivious. And apparently we had a test in Spanish today on imperfect vs. preterite that I didn't know existed. Haha, well it was easy. I came home and had no language tasks to do and so did homework and had a little free Internet browsing time, which mostly consisted of this site. Then I did some biology reading (cellular respiration...complex!) and then reviewed my Swedish vocabulary. Tomorrow is my Swedish day! I'm so excited! Oh, I found out that someone in my math class knows Swedish or something... I don't know the details yet, but it made me happy--someone to practice with! I have to go now, so bonne nuit! --Philip 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
 Jiwon Triglot Moderator Korea, South Joined 6285 days ago 1417 posts - 1500 votes Speaks: EnglishC2, Korean*, GermanC1 Studies: Hindi, Spanish Personal Language Map | Message 52 of 265 07 October 2009 at 6:34am | IP Logged | |||||
Doesn't really matter for us, does it? I'm used to people who rate their language levels higher than what it really is, so I just choose to ignore them. I know my definition of fluency, and that's where I want to reach, not some random person's idea of fluency. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Leopejo Bilingual Triglot Senior Member Italy Joined 5958 days ago 675 posts - 724 votes Speaks: Italian*, Finnish*, English Studies: French, Russian | Message 53 of 265 07 October 2009 at 10:54am | IP Logged | |||||
Well... now you should translate his text into Italian. Let's see if you are right! ;-) By the way, I would have said he was Italian by his English. Maybe romance languages have similar patterns (in writing!). 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Thatzright Diglot Senior Member Finland Joined 5521 days ago 202 posts - 311 votes Speaks: Finnish*, English Studies: French, Swedish, German, Russian | Message 54 of 265 07 October 2009 at 4:37pm | IP Logged | |||||
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As I assessed in the topic anamsc refers to, I don't believe achieving native fluency in the literate sense of the term is possible in learning foreign languages. Everybody who has listed themselves as having 'native fluency' in anything but their native language(s), I am sorry for my probably incomprehensible opinion and please keep yours, but I just think it is a ridiculous idea. It is called 'native' fluency for a reason, I'd say. Some people think 'native fluency' is just being able to say everything you want to say with some errors, some people think it's being able to say everything you want almost without any (I'd consider myself being about here). But even if you get that far, it's not native fluency. This is not the language your thoughts are the absolute clearest in, and you haven't grown up with it, so no, no native fluency.
I think the whole 'native fluency' term is a bad one anyway, if there needs to be another level after 'Advanced' I'd say it could preferably be 'Very advanced'. This means that you are ooooh so good in a language not your native one and can talk about volcanoes erupting and your favorite types of mushrooms and what kinds of soups you like to turn them into and whatever else, but hey, all in all, when all the aspects of the language are put together, you're still not on the level of a native. You're very good if you get here, yes, absolutely, but it's just not the same as being a native speaker of the language. As far as the quote is concerned, I would rank the person who wrote it around basic fluency or maybe a little below that. Oh and um, as always, keep up the good work ellasevia! : D Edited by Thatzright on 07 October 2009 at 4:38pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| ellasevia Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2011 Senior Member Germany Joined 5991 days ago 2150 posts - 3229 votes Speaks: English*, German, Croatian, Greek, French, Spanish, Russian, Swedish, Portuguese, Turkish, Italian Studies: Catalan, Persian, Mandarin, Japanese, Romanian, Ukrainian | Message 55 of 265 08 October 2009 at 5:18am | IP Logged | |||||
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Wednesday: Svenska
Goals: 2 Livemocha lessons Achieved: yes, and more! I love Swedish. I just do. I don't know how I could resist it before now. It's just so delightful! My goal was to finish Unit 1 on Livemocha by today, but I did quite a bit more than that. I also finished over half of the second unit (3/5 lessons)! So, so far I have completed 9 Livemocha lessons (and 1 lesson from my en-route Swedish book). Hooray. I am estimating my current vocabulary at 150-200 words... Well, that's insignificant for now. I learned today that Swedish verbs are both very easy and also a bit tricky. I knew that the present tense was super easy, but I didn't know its full workings. I have now learned about the four verb conjugations for the regular present, past, and supine forms. In doing so, I also learned the future tense, the present perfect, the pluperfect, the future perfect, the present conditional, and the conditional perfect. Swedish is so easy! I also learned that there are many irregular verbs in the past and supine/past participle, like German and English. Sometimes the English equivalent helps, like: I stand --> I stood --> I have stood Jag står --> Jag stod --> Jag har stått ...or... I drink --> I drank --> I have drunk Jag dricker --> Jag drack --> Jag har druckit But sometimes it doesn't help at all: I smile --> I smiled --> I have smiled Jag ler --> Jag log --> Jag har lett Well, it's interesting, at least. I feel quite ashamed to admit that I actually had to user verbix.com to look up what the past participle of "to drink" is...in English! Sadness. Anyways, I will learn Swedish verbs the following ways: 1) with their infinitive form 2) with their present tense form (if irregular) 3) with their past tense form (if irregular) 4) with their past participle form (if irregular) So, for "to be" it would look like this on my flashcards: vara 4, är, var, varit Hooray. I also decided to set a goal for Swedish. I would like to have achieved basic fluency in Swedish by... [drumroll] ...March 29th, 2010 (six months from when I started)! I think this is reasonable...I hope. Well, that's all for tonight. I shall have to look up what 'good night' is in Swedish... Just a moment, please! Ah, here we are: GOD NATT!!! --Philip P.S. I was correct about how to say 'good night,' BTW. I guessed and then looked it up. :) EDIT: I forgot to say thanks to everyone for commenting, and also that my Swedish book was shipped yesterday, and is supposedly going to arrive sometime next week, according to Amazon. I can't wait! I also got an Italian reader book in that order. We'll see how it is. Edited by ellasevia on 08 October 2009 at 5:19am 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Thatzright Diglot Senior Member Finland Joined 5521 days ago 202 posts - 311 votes Speaks: Finnish*, English Studies: French, Swedish, German, Russian | Message 56 of 265 08 October 2009 at 12:06pm | IP Logged | |||||
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Nice to see you making progress so quickly, this just goes to show what an important factor motivation is behind language learning. I have been studying Swedish for three years with little or no real desire to actually learn it and even though my vocabulary has to be at something like almost a thousand words or so, your overall understanding of how the grammar works is probably already better than mine : D And of course, a thousand words is kind of pathetic for three years, at least by my standards, but yeah.
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