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Latvian stands firm against Russian. | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Specific Languages | ( Topic Closed) |  |
| Марк Senior Member Russian Federation Joined 5057 days ago 2096 posts - 2972 votes  Speaks: Russian* | Message 57 of 91 21 February 2012 at 12:52pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
don't you see the it is true? The humain history is full of invasions, occupations, pressions and other things like that. The countries which were "offended" by Russia are not better themselves. 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| Марк Senior Member Russian Federation Joined 5057 days ago 2096 posts - 2972 votes Speaks: Russian* | Message 58 of 91 21 February 2012 at 12:56pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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Russians are not a historical minority in Latvia,
They are. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| viedums Hexaglot Senior Member Thailand Joined 4667 days ago 327 posts - 528 votes Speaks: Latvian, English*, German, Mandarin, Thai, French Studies: Vietnamese | Message 59 of 91 24 February 2012 at 4:21am | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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Edward Lucas of the Economist on the referendum:
http://www.economist.com/blogs/easternapproaches/2012/02/mor e-questions-please Here's how he characterizes the language situation: "In practice, Latvia is a kind of bilingual society, with some awkward asymmetries. Almost all ethnic Latvians (around two-thirds of the population) know at least some Russian, though they may resent speaking it. Some Russians have Latvian citizenship anyway, if they or their ancestors were citizens of the pre-war republic. Others have adopted Latvian citizenship enthusiastically (as of April last year the number of naturalisations was 135,840). Others are bilingual but refuse to consider applying for citizenship; others defiantly refuse to speak Latvian at all, even after 22 years of independence. There are other quirks too: the language people speak at home is not necessarily the same as their declared ethnicity; Latvia has plenty of mixed marriages (unlike neighbouring Estonia). Some people who are nominally part of the Polish, Belarusian and Ukrainian minorities may be Russophone in practice. In recent years the language issue has been off the boil. International human-rights bodies have largely accepted the Latvian argument that having some sort of language hurdle for citizenship is justified. The number of non-citizens (around 300,000, or one in six of the population) is in slow decline, though more because of demography than naturalisation, which has slowed to a trickle. Non-citizens have restricted voting rights and are barred from some jobs (and rules about knowing Latvian also apply to jobs dealing with the public)." Whether you agree or disagree with EL's take on the refendum, he sums up its significance nicely when he writes that it was bound to fail, but "if the organisers wanted to polarise Latvian society, they may count the result as a success." 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| Марк Senior Member Russian Federation Joined 5057 days ago 2096 posts - 2972 votes Speaks: Russian* | Message 60 of 91 24 February 2012 at 11:28am | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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The main idea of this article is that most Russians supported Latvian independence on the poll in 1991, while now Latvia is glad that the majority can oppress the minority. Who did we defeat Edited by Марк on 24 February 2012 at 11:29am 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| Evita Tetraglot Senior Member Latvia learnlatvian.info Joined 6553 days ago 734 posts - 1036 votes Speaks: Latvian*, English, German, Russian Studies: Korean, Finnish | Message 61 of 91 20 March 2012 at 2:05pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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I know this topic is a month old already but I can't not post in it, being a Latvian
myself. I confess I am shocked that many people here think having Russian as an official language would be a good idea - because it definitely wouldn't. It would be a death sentence to the Latvian language and culture. Mark, Russians are not oppressed in Latvia. Why would you think that? Not having the right to vote does not count as human rights violation. The situation in Latvia has been very difficult ethnically. Legally and technically speaking, Latvia was first founded in 1918 and it was occupied by the Soviet Union in 1940. In 1991, Latvia regained independence and took the same constitution from before 1940 so legally speaking, it was the same country. But the difference was in the number of people who were not Latvians but living in Latvia. So what should the government have done in 1991? Make Russian an official language? Of course not! Russian had been the official language in the Soviet Union but it had no place in an independent Latvia. Latvia is so small and it already has its own language, it doesn't need another one. The main thing to understand here is that Russia is a hundred times bigger than Latvia and they are right next to each other. So Latvia constantly feels threatened by Russia (and with good cause as we all know). If the large minority in Latvia wasn't Russian but some other language that didn't have its own country, I'm sure the government would treat it very differently. But in this case, Russian is under no threat from Latvian so it doesn't need any special treatment. You may argue that Russians living in Latvia in 1991 should have been granted automatic citizenship. Yes, there are tons of people who were born in Latvia's territory during 1950-1990 but don't have Latvian citizenship. This is a debatable issue but I think the citizenship issue was handled correctly because it put the Latvian language at the forefront. They didn't want Latvian citizens who couldn't speak Latvian. Why? It's because, as I wrote earlier, Russian had been the official language in Latvia's territory for more than 50 years and the position of the Latvian language was precarious so the government was doing everything in its power to strenghten the language. And it was the right thing to do. Now, about this referendum - there was no chance of it passing and everyone knew it but still the Russian party made sure it happened. Why? I don't know. The Russians have a very good life here - for one thing, there are actually more newspapers in Russian than in Latvian. They can go to government-funded Russian schools, they can get a job without knowing Latvian, they can watch Russian TV channels all day long, they can go to Russian theatre and do all kinds of things Russian. The only thing they can't do in Russian is fill out government forms, and that's a tiny thing compared to everything else. You are right if you think Latvians have resentment toward Russians who don't respect the Latvian law and language. This is not their country, they can always go back to Russia if they think they'll like it better there. The bottomline is that Latvians cherish their language and want to protect it. Russian is a much much bigger language so it would eventually kill Latvian if they were both made official languages. Not to mention the fact that Latvians had to suffer the Russian language for 50 years and therefore have a strong negative emotional reaction to it. All Russians living in Latvia are encouraged to become citizens but they must learn Latvian for that. It's the way it should be, it's the only way a small country and a small nation can protect itself. 5 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| Марк Senior Member Russian Federation Joined 5057 days ago 2096 posts - 2972 votes Speaks: Russian* | Message 62 of 91 20 March 2012 at 3:02pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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"The Russians have a
very good life here - for one thing, there are actually more newspapers in Russian than in Latvian. They can go to government-funded Russian schools, they can get a job without knowing Latvian, they can watch Russian TV channels all day long, they can go to Russian theatre and do all kinds of things Russian. The only thing they can't do in Russian is fill out government forms, and that's a tiny thing compared to everything else. You are right if you think Latvians have resentment toward Russians who don't respect the Latvian law and language. This is not their country, they can always go back to Russia if they think they'll like it better there." They can't get high education in Russian, there is a threat of closure of Russian schools, there are no signs in Russian and the government tries to exile the Russian language. The fact there are more Russian newspapers says that Russian language is strongly needed bu the people, while the Latvian government pretends it does not exist. What did Latvians dislike in the Soviet Union then? They could read Latvian newspapers, go to state-founded schools and universities, write documents in their language. They had equal rights with other Soviet people. You complain about the Soviet rule, but you yourself are worse than the Soviet Union. 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| Марк Senior Member Russian Federation Joined 5057 days ago 2096 posts - 2972 votes Speaks: Russian* | Message 63 of 91 20 March 2012 at 3:19pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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"so it would eventually kill Latvian if they were both
made official languages." Proof? "Not to mention the fact that Latvians had to suffer the Russian language for 50 years and therefore have a strong negative emotional reaction to it." Poor Latvians. How they suffered. The Russian language is so ugly and disgusting that learning it makes suffer. Anyway languages are for people, not people for languages. According to you French mustn't be an official language of France because it threatens other languages, English must be oppressed everywhere because it has gained too strong position. "Legally and technically speaking, Latvia was first founded in 1918 and it was occupied by the Soviet Union in 1940. In 1991, Latvia regained independence and took the same constitution from before 1940 so legally speaking, it was the same country." The Soviet Union was very bad, let's restore the Russian Empire. "but it had no place in an independent Latvia." Latvia can be called independent only because nothing depends on it. Edited by Марк on 20 March 2012 at 3:20pm 3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| Evita Tetraglot Senior Member Latvia learnlatvian.info Joined 6553 days ago 734 posts - 1036 votes Speaks: Latvian*, English, German, Russian Studies: Korean, Finnish | Message 64 of 91 20 March 2012 at 3:51pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
If they want to get university education, they should be able to learn Latvian too. In fact, many of the students I've studied with have been Russian and not a single one of them has expressed anger or anything like that over the fact that there are no Russian universities in Latvia. Educated Latvians and Russians usually get along very well.
I can't believe I have to explain this. Latvians disliked the fact that their country was occupied. Sure, they had equal rights with Soviet people but they didn't want to be Soviet people, they wanted to be Latvians in a free and independent country. Tens of thousands of Latvians were sent to Siberia to die and you are wondering why Latvians disliked the Soviet Union??? And for the record, you're wrong, Latvians couldn't write documents in their own language.
The Latvians feel that way, they don't need any proof because by then it would be too late. And I'm not sure why you think you know better if you don't live in Latvia.
I'll stop this discussion now. Latvians have indeed suffered severely and if you don't want to admit it then we'll never understand each other. 8 persons have voted this message useful |
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