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| montmorency Diglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 4772 days ago 2371 posts - 3676 votes  Speaks: English*, German Studies: Danish, Welsh | Message 33 of 133 27 July 2012 at 11:42pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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2012-07-27 Freitag|Fredag
Goodness - hasn't July gone quickly? Deutsch Another interesting point that Fontane has helped me to realise (I think it came up in "Irrungen, Wirrungen") is that not only were some "foreigners" wary of Prussia's expansionism, not all Germans were thrilled about it, either, in this case, the Hanoverians. He uses the term"Guelphs", which was new to me. (But as old Briest would have said "Das ist ein zu weites Feld", so we definitely won't go there...). Back to "Unwiederbringlich", and I see from the notes that, like Effi Briest, Fontane based this (somewhat loosely) upon a true story, although he changed the locations and I think the stations in life of the main protagonists. It ends up as another tragic story (apparently, although I haven't got to the tragic part yet). I've got a bit too far ahead with the translation, and will try to get back in "sync". From then on, I think I will try the following with this book: 1. Read a chapter of English 2. Listen to the same chapter in German, listening only, not reading anything, and not stopping; no writing down; no looking up. 3. Listening to the chapter in German while reading the English, and not stopping; no writing down; no looking up. [possible optional 4th step: quickly skim through the German text looking for words I'm still not sure of, or want to pay extra attention to]. It will take a little longer than what I have been doing recently, but perhaps the effect will be more lasting. As always, try it, see how it goes; adapt and modify as necessary. Edited by montmorency on 27 July 2012 at 11:46pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| montmorency Diglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 4772 days ago 2371 posts - 3676 votes Speaks: English*, German Studies: Danish, Welsh | Message 34 of 133 29 July 2012 at 11:39pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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2012-07-28 Samstag|Sonnaben|Lørdag
Spent most of the day walking with a group along the banks of the Thames, having lunch at a nice riverside pub, more walking, then back for a cup of coffee and a long chat, sitting in the sunshine at the café attached to the same pub. Not much time or energy left for active language activities, but the 9pm slot on BBC4 TV proved interesting. This is the slot the BBC have been using to show foreign language drama (especially Scandinavian) for the last few years, and tonight's was one of the Rolf Lassgård versions of Wallander. They had shown 6 of the most recently made of these before, several times (based on 4 of the books - 2 of the books are split into 2 parts for the TV version), and that set of episodes recently came out on a DVD set made for the UK market. We had got the impression those were going to be the only ones BBC would show. However, this was a hitherto unseen (on BBC) episode, based on the story "Sidetracked") (part 1 of 2 episodes). It was closer to the book than the more recently made episodes have been. (I suspect they have been dumbed down to make them more televisual :-( ). The fascinating thing was that it looked like this had been made for the German market, because the opening credits were in German. I was afraid it was going to be dubbed into German, but the audio was in Swedish, and of course there were English subtitles. The interesting thing was that in the cast list, the Swedish actors were credited, but also for each character, an actor with a German name was also mentioned. I'm guessing that there was a German (dubbed) soundtrack available, but they had been able to avoid using that, and had used the Swedish soundtrack. Whether this comes from a DVD made for the German market, or some other source, I have no idea. We will get part 2 of this episode next Saturday I think but I'm not sure what others we'll get. I recognised a handful of words via Danish. Although of course I'm not attempting to learn Swedish, I count listening to any Scandinavian language as grist to the mill, so it was not time wasted. Edited by montmorency on 29 July 2012 at 11:43pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Lapislazuli Tetraglot Senior Member Austria Joined 6980 days ago 146 posts - 170 votes Speaks: German*, EnglishC2, Swedish, ItalianB1 Studies: French, Hungarian, Esperanto, Czech | Message 35 of 133 08 August 2012 at 8:42pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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That is interesting that you say the Wallander-movies look like they have been partly shot for the German market - I believe that too. Those have been extremely popular arround here for a while. There was even one entirely shot in Austria and Germany starring some actors that are quite popular arround here, and some Swedes as well. Now looking it up, it's not a Wallander-story, but the filming of another one of Henning Mankell's books: Danslärarens återmkomst (Die Rückkehr des Tanzlehrers)
Personally I prefer the Martin Beck series by Maj Sjöwall and Per Wahlöö. They have also been filmed a few times. There is one series made in the nineties, with Rolf Lassgård in it as well. And then there is a newer series as well called "Beck" that is just veeery loosely based on the books, but still I found it hilarious. I am sure you would also be able to find it in German, as it has also been aired in German TV, there even a few episodes where the Swedish detective-team gets help from a German policeman, and he and Beck talk in German then (with subtitles in the Swedish verstion, in the German version it's in German anyway) I like the Beck-stuff because it has also some sense of humour to them (books and movies the same)I am sure you would also be able to find the books in Danish, as they have been more or less the first Scandinavian detective-novels or at least the most influential ones. I have read through your log, but it could be you have mentioned those things before and you have seen them already, and I have missed that - if so I am sorry ... 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| montmorency Diglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 4772 days ago 2371 posts - 3676 votes Speaks: English*, German Studies: Danish, Welsh | Message 36 of 133 09 August 2012 at 12:13am | IP Logged | ||||||||
Hi @Lapislazuli,
Maybe not so much shot, as later edited, and a German soundtrack added? I'm not sure. Maybe the BBC could tell me. I really hope a DVD version of this will become availailable on the UK market. I had seen some Lassgård-Wallander DVDs for the German market online, but couldn't be sure if they would still have a Swedish soundtrack, or would only have a dubbed German one.
Indeed, I have heard of Maj Sjöwall and Per Wahlöö. We've had documentaries here on Henning Mankell & "Scandi-noir" which talked about them, and Mankell says he was inspired by them when creating Wallander. I did try reading one of the books in English, but didn't get on with it very well. I think I should try again though.
Well, humour is one thing I do miss in Mankell / Wallander, so I might well like the Beck stuff once I'd got into it properly. Yes, I suspect that Swedish and Norwegian would translate quite nicely into Danish, more easily than other language translations, and I'm certainly nowadays open to the idea of reading translations into Danish of other Scandinavian languages; perhaps less so from other languages, although I suppose I would make exception for significant works from English ... the ubiquitous Harry Potter, for example :-) (When I'm ready to read a book in Danish, that is, which is not yet I'm afraid). I've heard Haakon Nesser speaking (via a podcast) on a UK website that is dedicated to Scandinavian "noir", and he says that he uses humour in his books too (and you can tell from his personality when he speaks that he would). I suspect I'd like his style, but I haven't read him yet, although I did find an audiobook of one of his short stories, translated into German. I'm aware that Scandinavian crime fiction had a big following in the German speaking world before we in the UK discovered it, so I'm lucky that if I want, I have a good chance of finding a German translation (and maybe audiobook) of any good Scandinavian crime novel, and if it's not originally in Danish, I can probably find a Danish translation as well. That's been the case with some I have looked up online. Actually one Danish crime writer I discovered is Jussi Adler-Olsen. I've read 2 of his books now in English, and hope to read them in Danish in due course, and I know they are translated into German. In fact I found one ("Erbarmen" - "Mercy" in English) in one of my local libraries. There is some quite good humour in those as well actually. In the long run (it will probably be a very long run ...) I'd like to try to learn Norwegian (properly) and Swedish one day, so reading Norwegian and Swedish writers in translation now, will indirectly serve as some groundwork for that; theoretically it shouldn't be a massive step to go to reading a Swedish author in Swedish, if I've already read them Danish (and English, and maybe even German).....well, that's the theory. :-) EDIT: BTW "Die Rückkehr des Tanzlehrers" - Rings a bell. The Return of the Dancing Master. We've read that book, and it involves (I think) a character with the same name as one who appeared in the Swedish TV versions of Wallander with Krister Henriksson, which were shown here. He plays the boyfriend of Linda, Wallander's daughter. So although as you say, that book is not a Wallander story, it's almost like a "crossover". Anyway, we read it because we'd read all the Wallander books available at that time, and there was at least a tenuous connection, so it helped to feed our "addiction" :-) . Edited by montmorency on 09 August 2012 at 12:31am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Teango Triglot Winner TAC 2010 & 2012 Senior Member United States teango.wordpress.comRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5500 days ago 2210 posts - 3734 votes Speaks: English*, German, Russian Studies: Hawaiian, French, Toki Pona | Message 37 of 133 10 August 2012 at 9:24pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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Good luck with this new methodology! I look forward to reading how it works out.
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| montmorency Diglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 4772 days ago 2371 posts - 3676 votes Speaks: English*, German Studies: Danish, Welsh | Message 38 of 133 10 August 2012 at 10:29pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
Cheers T! Well, you keep setting the bar pretty high, but I will endeavour not to let you down, or at least, if I go down, to go down fighting, but still smiling :-) I'm maintaining my log offline at the moment. About time I pasted some of it back in here I guess... 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| montmorency Diglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 4772 days ago 2371 posts - 3676 votes Speaks: English*, German Studies: Danish, Welsh | Message 39 of 133 12 August 2012 at 10:41pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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Time I pasted the updates I've been keeping offline since the
Dies Irae Dies Illa 2012-07-31 Dienstag|Tirsdag HTLAL seemed to be having all sorts of problems when I tried using it just before. Google/Chrome was warning me about malware on the site, and when I went ahead to use it anyway, it was unusable. Opera/FF no better. Then I found I couldn't even "ping" it. Ironic that people were discussing the question of how secure the site was the other day (backups, etc). I suppose we'll find out soon (or maybe we won't). So, typing this offline, while it's fresh in my mind. Deutsch 2 More chapters of "Unwiederbringlich", this time in the way I mentioned before, specifically:- 1. Read a chapter in English. 2. Listen to the same chapter in German, without reading, without stopping, eyes closed ("intense listening"). 3. Listen to chapter in German while reading the English; again, do not stop; do not write anything down. 4. (which I now think is non-optional actually) Quickly read through the German text, underlining any words of interest, for possible later adding to a wordlist. Words of interest: unknown words; not fully known words (maybe gender not previously known for certain, for example, or not the full range of meanings); words I sort of know or can guess, but want to make sure; words/phrases used idiomatically in an interesting way; anything else that strikes me as interesting. I don't necessarily do the wordlisting straight away, or I might just do it for a group or two of them. A "missing" step here is to listen to the German while reading the German text. I think this is a valuable step (especially for more difficult texts), but I don't want to to cram too much in at once, and I don't want to miss out that intensive-listening step for now. It's something I may well come back to. There is also the possibility of using parallel texts. While I'm certainly not discounting their use, I don't have many at the moment. As it happens, I did start to make one of "Unwiederbringlich" once before, based on a google translation. I didn't finish it, partly perhaps because I was more than unsure of the google translation. Now I have a decent translation, I suppose I could go back and correct the google translation with the help of the good translation, or I could try scanning & OCR-ing the good translation. The trouble with parallel texts (unless they come in published book form) is that (unless you print them out, which I would not want to do) you are tied to the computer, which I prefer not to be all the time; I quite like the option of reading it in real book form where possible. I don't have an E-Reader, although I suppose sooner or later I will get around to buying one. Back to the book: As mentioned before, it is set in Schleswig-Holstein, and also in Copenhagen, and at an interesting period of Danish-German history - 1859-61. Schleswig, at least notionally, is still under the Danish crown (although annexation by Prussia is always on the cards). Count Holk, one of the main protagonists, has an honourary appointment at the Danish court, specifically as Gentleman-in-Waiting for "The Princess", a fictional invention of Fontane's, although according to the notes, she fits in seamlessly with the family tree, and could easily have existed. This is a background story, although it may well prove to play a significant part in the human story, which is the main part of the novel. In passing, it is interesting to note that when Holk is met and taken out to dine with Pentz and Erichsen, two fellow courtiers, on his arrival in Copenhagen, they drink to "Gamle Danmark". (Gammel is "old" in Danish). It's not clear to what extent they are Danish and to what extent they are German. "Erichsen" sounds like a Danish name; "Pentz" could be either. Holk seems to be regarded as a German at the court, but he seems to have a certain loyalty to and regard for Denmark. When he is arguing with his wife earlier in the book, she complains that he either finds her not Danish enough, or not Prussian enough, so she can't win. (Sadly, it is a marriage in trouble). Anyway, clearly the question of identity was around at that time in that place, and one gathers that it rumbled on for quite some time. There is a lot of information in the notes in the translation, which I need to re-read, and also read the notes in the German original. To check the quality and by way of a change, I listened to the 1st chapter of "Harry Potter (1) und der Stein Der Weisen". I don't have the German text, and don't suppose I will get it, but it is not too difficult to follow. We should have the English text somewhere, but I haven't looked it out. This may be more necessary with the later books. Lovefilm decided to send me "Der Blaue Engel" (on my list, but not near the top...not sure how they decide), the classic film that made Marlene Dietrich famous. The sound quality is not good, and it's not easy to hear the dialogue. Still, it's great for "atmosphere". This is the film with the famous song, which in the English version (not a translation) is called "Falling In Love Again". The German original starts "Ich bin von Kopf bis Fuß, auf Liebe eingestellt". I love the lines: "Männer umschwirr'n mich wie Motten um das Licht; und, wenn sie verbrennen, ja dafür kann ich nicht", (which is more or less the same in the English version). The extras include some interesting material, including Dietrich's screen test for the film; she was a student actress, and clearly brimming with talent, and perfect for the role. She sings an English song, suggesting she had some knowledge of English. It is a long time since I've seen the English version; from the extras, it's clear that at least part of the film was re-shot for the English version. Emil Jannings ("Professor Rath") had worked in the USA, so both principals could have re-voiced their lines in English easily enough I should think, although the other actors might have been dubbed. Dietrich went to the USA immediately after the film premiere (actually on the same night - it's not clear if she was actually there!), and the rest is history. I hadn't realised that the story was based on a book by Heinrich Mann called "Professor Unrat" - Unrat (= rubbish) is what the pupils mockingly call him. The other Lovefilm offering at the moment is "Amores Perros", which we've seen before, but it's a remarkable film. I put it on the list mostly for Frau Montmorency, (she is actively studying Spanish), but she's less of a film buff, and is usually too busy to sit down and watch a DVD at home, plus she was less impressed by this film than I was, seemingly, so the problem will be getting her to watch it! Even when I was studying Spanish actively, I used to find Mexican Spanish (in films) almost impossible to follow. This is where TL subtitles would be handy, but I'm sure there won't be any. I have a feeling that rental DVDs almost never have them. I imagine they are some sort of cheap editions specifically designed for rental in a a particular market. Not that purchased DVDs always have them either, but there is often some sort of choice. Edited by montmorency on 12 August 2012 at 11:36pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| montmorency Diglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 4772 days ago 2371 posts - 3676 votes Speaks: English*, German Studies: Danish, Welsh | Message 40 of 133 12 August 2012 at 10:42pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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2012-08-01 Mittwoch|Onsdag
Deutsch Read and listened to chapter 14 of "unwiederbringlich", using the 4 stage approach mentioned above. I have to resist, while listening to German and reading the English, tuning out the German audio and just reading the English, which is unfortunately all too easy to do. I have found that a simple trick helps to guard against this, which is to place a blank sheet of paper over the line of English while I am listening to the same line in German, and then to start revealing the English at some point after about half way, as one can normally take it in at a glance. This works well for shorter and simpler sentences. With longer and more complex sentences (where the word and phrase order may well be different, it's a bit more difficult, and then I have to consciously hold on to the German audio, and reveal the English as late as possible. I imagine something like this might work with parallel texts. I suppose interleaved text (with L1 2nd) could also work this way. Intermezzo I see Julie and Emk have both offered temporary homes for HTAL, and Emk and others have tried to contact FX, so far without success. I may delete the following later, but while all this is fresh in my mind: If FX was running this site as a paying business, then it was in his interests to make sure it was being actively maintained, developed, bug-fixed, and have people on standby. If it was done purely pro-bono, and he no longer had time to maintain it, then the real pro-bono thing to do would have been to hand it over to willing volunteers, to either maintain it in-situ, or transfer to a new server and/or new software. It's not like we have a system down, but people are working to get it up. It's that we have a system down, and the only person who can get it back up is apparently uncontactable. My worry is that it might be a situation whereby if intervention is not made soon enough, the problems may become unrecoverable. Worst-case - the owner might be locked out of his own system, and even his own backups. Later squeezed in chapter 15 of "Unwiederbringlich", and had been planning to do some Danish vocabulary and then watch "Borgen" on BBC4 (at the rather late hour of midnight), but was too tired to do either, and went to bed. Will have to catch Borgen on iPlayer. 1 person has voted this message useful |
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