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TAC 2013, Sakura 桜 - dampingwire | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Language Learning Log |  | |
| g-bod Diglot Senior Member United KingdomRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5980 days ago 1485 posts - 2002 votes  Speaks: English*, Japanese Studies: French, German | Message 89 of 137 20 July 2013 at 10:16pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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Learning expressions in the format noun particle verb can definitely be helpful. But at a
slightly more abstract level it's probably a good idea to get as familiar as you can with fundamental grammar features which shape particle use, in particular transitive/intransitive verbs, and also giving/receiving and the passive. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| kraemder Senior Member United StatesRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5182 days ago 1497 posts - 1648 votes Speaks: English* Studies: German, Spanish, Japanese | Message 90 of 137 21 July 2013 at 12:01am | IP Logged | ||||||||
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I just read your post on the test. It sounds like you did very well and finishing the reading section on time is a
lot better than most other people. I'm betting you passes based on that but obviously we'll have to wait for the results. Regarding particles. Are you sure it's all about the verbs? I know there are certain verbs that require certain particles like お風呂に入る but I don't remember there being so many on the test and it was more about understanding which particles were used for specific grammar. Maybe I'm wrong it's been a while for me since I took it. But for stuff like giving and receiving just read up on the grammar there. The passive uses に etc. When do you plan to do the test again? I'm thinking about December for an attempt at N3. I remember talking to one of the other test participants and be wasn't going to try N3 until he passed N4 even if the test is only once a year. Personally I'd like to try N3 even though I missed on N4. And it sounds like you may be lucky in that the test is offered twice a year in London? 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| dampingwire Bilingual Triglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 4663 days ago 1185 posts - 1513 votes Speaks: English*, Italian*, French Studies: Japanese | Message 91 of 137 21 July 2013 at 8:48pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
Those cases are probably the easy sorts of usages. I'm fine with those (when I remember the specific usage or when I recognise the grammar :-)). I'm also OK with the simple ones (が for potential, を for transitive, に for destination with a verb of motion). As a random example, why is this に: これは とい ところを みるの に 使い ます。 I don't seem to be able to find any general rules that allow me to work this out from first principles. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| dampingwire Bilingual Triglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 4663 days ago 1185 posts - 1513 votes Speaks: English*, Italian*, French Studies: Japanese | Message 92 of 137 21 July 2013 at 8:58pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
I managed to colour in circles quite quickly - but did I colour in the right ones :-) Actually during the test, I though that I raced through the first page of the first test and yet I could hear several pages turn before mine. Next time I may turn my page after the first 10 seconds, just so I can win at something ...
Well I want to have a good grounding in N3 vocab before I try for N3. Since that means pronunciation and kanji I think that the 5 months (oops, no 4 months now!) before the next sitting at the beginning of December is too short a time. So I certainly won't be trying again before the summer. I'm not sure whether I'll sit N3 or just head on to N2. If I'm going to use JLPT as a benchmark for progress, then I think I want to sit one every year or so, so I don't want to leave (say) a 2-3 year gap until N2. The nice thing about aiming for N3 in July 2014 is that it should spur me on to keep working through the vocab, grammar and listening.
If I fail N4 then I don't think I'd re-sit it. N4 isn't worth anything in the job market and, for me, it's just a measure of where I'm at. It's served it's purpose and highlighted my weakest areas. So the next exam I sit will be N3 (or N2). I can't think of any reason why you shouldn't try for N3. Certainly the Japan Foundation doesn't require you to sit the exams in order ... you can go straight for N1 if you want. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| g-bod Diglot Senior Member United KingdomRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5980 days ago 1485 posts - 2002 votes Speaks: English*, Japanese Studies: French, German | Message 93 of 137 21 July 2013 at 9:42pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
I'm guessing you meant とおい rather than とい? In this case the particle expresses a use or purpose. It's actually listed in my grammar dictionary as のに (although the の is dropped if placed after a noun or if you follow the に with a は so maybe technically it is just a に). I think usages like this just need to be learned as specific sentence patterns. And now you've started scratching at the intermediate phase of Japanese grammar, you'll find most stuff that appears as "grammar" in your textbook is basically another sentence pattern. Fun. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| dampingwire Bilingual Triglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 4663 days ago 1185 posts - 1513 votes Speaks: English*, Italian*, French Studies: Japanese | Message 94 of 137 24 July 2013 at 2:53pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
Yes. Sorry, it wasn't meant to be a sneaky test :-)
That makes much more sense. I suspect that it is a に, as then I could parse the の as a nominaliser and I don't need to worry about the exceptions for nouns etc. But maybe that's not how Japanese grammar works. I think that, given a question with a missing particle and 4 possible answers, I just don't know enough grammar to see which fit and which don't. At least I don't see it quickly enough. So much more practice will be necessary. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| g-bod Diglot Senior Member United KingdomRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5980 days ago 1485 posts - 2002 votes Speaks: English*, Japanese Studies: French, German | Message 95 of 137 24 July 2013 at 7:39pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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To put a more positive spin on things, if you could always pick the right particle, you'd probably be speaking at advanced fluency already!
The good news is that I think the "pick the missing particle" type questions are less frequent the further you get up the JLPT ladder - presumably because there are a lot more different types of expressions it is possible to test you on. Whether you want to pass a test or simply speak good Japanese, particle knowledge is important. But at least it's not the only thing you need to worry about! Naoko Chino's book All About Particles is not a bad reference guide to particle usage. Interestingly, this usage of に is also filed under のに in this book too, even though I would agree with you that the の looks more like a nominaliser. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| dampingwire Bilingual Triglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 4663 days ago 1185 posts - 1513 votes Speaks: English*, Italian*, French Studies: Japanese | Message 96 of 137 24 July 2013 at 11:41pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
I'm pretty poor with the "we've cut this sentence up, please put it back together properly" type questions too. Maybe they could combine the two techniques and blank out a particle too just to make it more challenging :-)
I do like that book. Definitely one of my better purchases. Eventually I'll internalise it ... 1 person has voted this message useful |
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