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Lack of Noun Gender in English | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Specific Languages |  | |
| patrickwilken Senior Member Germany radiant-flux.net Joined 4533 days ago 1546 posts - 3200 votes  Studies: German | Message 17 of 126 16 December 2013 at 8:31pm | IP Logged | |||||
I am no linguist, but I did read a book by a linguist once, and he argued that a lot the grammar simplification in English was due to Norse farmers in the North of England. Author Sort: McWhorter, John Title Sort: Our Magnificent Bastard Tongue: The Untold Story of English Edited by patrickwilken on 16 December 2013 at 8:31pm 5 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6597 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 18 of 126 16 December 2013 at 10:02pm | IP Logged | |||||
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In case anyone wonders, according to wiktionary the ancestors of the word ship weren't feminine in Old English and Proto-Germanic. IDK if it's significant though.
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| 1e4e6 Octoglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 4290 days ago 1013 posts - 1588 votes Speaks: English*, French, Spanish, Portuguese, Norwegian, Dutch, Swedish, Italian Studies: German, Danish, Russian, Catalan | Message 19 of 126 16 December 2013 at 11:51pm | IP Logged | |||||
Yes, but as said before, the "she" for countries is not grammatical gender, but gender of personification--trying to personify an inanimate object that grammatically has no gender (since English has no gender). It is no different than my grandfather saying, "Mother England and Her Empire", the often quoted phrase "Mother Russia" during the USSR times, etc. As you said, it is used more often in poetry. In poetry and literary writing, quite many strange or metaphorical structures are permitted. For example, in a (non-rhyme) poem that I wrote for English class in primary school, I wrote a line like, "And I walked down the beach, watching the ocean, her waves splasheth the shore...". I wrote this in 1998, which is centuries after Old English and its gender, but in poetry I am more free to write like that. I cannot speak like that in actual spoken (or written) language that is outside of literature. I guarantee that if I went to a random person and said in English, "I cannot find my car in the carpark. Have you found him?", the other speaker would have a look of confusion, or ask if I switched the subject from my car to a person. "La voiture" in French and "el coche" in Spanish, however, are not personification. French and Spanish speakers do not call their cars "she" and "he" because they want to make their cars feel like people, but because the nouns themselves have the gender. The cars have neither biological nor personified gender in French and Spanish. Edited by 1e4e6 on 17 December 2013 at 12:03am 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| schoenewaelder Diglot Senior Member Germany Joined 5560 days ago 759 posts - 1197 votes Speaks: English*, French Studies: German, Spanish, Dutch | Message 20 of 126 17 December 2013 at 7:36pm | IP Logged | |||||
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I actually heard someone on TV speaking in the european parlament, who accidently used gender in English the other day. I really can't remember what he said, but it was an abstract noun, something like (completely made up): "It is an opportunity that we need to seize, because if we do not do so, she will not arise again", except it was probably a longer distance between the noun and pronoun. Anyway, it was really confusing, I had to think back to the previous clause to work out what he was talking about, whereas if he had just said "it", it would have all just flowed traight into my brain.
It's not something that happens very often, but you do hear it occasionally. I guess it's interference from the mother tongue again. 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Марк Senior Member Russian Federation Joined 5056 days ago 2096 posts - 2972 votes Speaks: Russian* | Message 21 of 126 17 December 2013 at 8:46pm | IP Logged | |||||
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I agree with you, 1e4e6, but why isn't "he" used in those situations? When is "he" used for personification?
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| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6597 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 22 of 126 17 December 2013 at 9:48pm | IP Logged | |||||
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| 1e4e6 Octoglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 4290 days ago 1013 posts - 1588 votes Speaks: English*, French, Spanish, Portuguese, Norwegian, Dutch, Swedish, Italian Studies: German, Danish, Russian, Catalan | Message 23 of 126 17 December 2013 at 10:53pm | IP Logged | |||||
That could be a possibility too. I had an acquaintance in university, though, who referred to his sports car as "she", and was obsessed with "her". I suppose this is why some refer to cars as "she", for him it was like a person. But grammatically, it makes no sense. Edited by 1e4e6 on 17 December 2013 at 10:54pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6597 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 24 of 126 17 December 2013 at 11:10pm | IP Logged | |||||
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