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Subjunctive in the Romance languages | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Specific Languages |  | |
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6597 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes  4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 1 of 25 29 April 2014 at 4:21pm | IP Logged | ||
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We've had many threads about the subjunctive, but mostly focused on French or Spanish. Any general ideas that will help a learner of any Romance languages? Whether practical or just some concepts you need to understand.
Also, any suggestions from those who've learned more that one Romance language? Any rules of thumb or success stories? I've read a bit about the history, but more info is always welcome. I'm personally struggling with the Italian one right now, and I think I never truly mastered it in Portuguese either. I'm also dreading the Spanish one, although I've picked up some common usage. (and this makes me insecure about my Portuguese) But of course anyone's experience is welcome. Please don't move this to the advice centre or philological room. I'm interested in both and some more :) 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Luso Hexaglot Senior Member Portugal Joined 6061 days ago 819 posts - 1812 votes Speaks: Portuguese*, French, EnglishC2, GermanB1, Italian, Spanish Studies: Sanskrit, Arabic (classical) | Message 2 of 25 29 April 2014 at 5:20pm | IP Logged | ||
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This may not be a great help, but I'll say it anyway: it's partly idiomatic, but we have a great deal of tolerance towards foreigners attempting it.
As a native Portuguese speaker, I've never really learned the rules. I believe Spanish is more or less the same. I also learned French from a tender age and didn't have problems at the beginning. However, as I progressed, it became a bit trickier. I remember once asking a friend of mine about a list where I had to choose between subjunctive and indicative. Her mother is French and a was teacher at the Lycée Français, which means they're all bilingual in her family. To cut a long story short, she got into an argument with her sisters about the "good" version. Everyone entering the room had a different opinion. As it turns out, they use it in subtler ways than we do. More confusing, also. Italian seems to fall into the French camp: almost all clear-cut, then very confusing at an advanced level. Anyway, I managed to work in French for 10+ years without any confusion (on that side, at least). Maybe it only applies very seldom. At the end of the day, my simplist view of Portuguese and Spanish may derive from my native status. Maybe we are as complicated as our trans-pyrenean cousins. As I said in the beginning, this may not be very helpful, as there are no rules of thumb. But it's the point of view of a native. 4 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6597 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 3 of 25 29 April 2014 at 5:54pm | IP Logged | ||
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Oh, this makes sense. I'm using a Spanish-based grammar book for Italian, and it devotes like 5-6 pages to the subjunctive. I suppose they just left out the more advanced usage.
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| Luso Hexaglot Senior Member Portugal Joined 6061 days ago 819 posts - 1812 votes Speaks: Portuguese*, French, EnglishC2, GermanB1, Italian, Spanish Studies: Sanskrit, Arabic (classical) | Message 4 of 25 29 April 2014 at 6:39pm | IP Logged | ||
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I study Italian at the local Istituto Italiano di Cultura. The teachers come from different regions of the country, and they all seem to agree that the mandatory advanced grammar we're supposed to use is confusing at times. I've seen them look at it with a puzzled look. Not a good sign.
That being said, the introduction to the subjunctive chapter is clear: "Il congiuntivo è un modo verbale che si usa in particolare in frasi dipendenti. In taluni casi il suo uso è indispensabile a dare senso alla frase. In altri casi il suo impiego dipende solo dalle intenzioni comunicative del parlante." If we take the third sentence, we see that not everything is carved in stone, and that your grammar should give you the framework. 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| drygramul Tetraglot Senior Member Italy Joined 4468 days ago 165 posts - 269 votes Speaks: Persian, Italian*, EnglishC2, GermanB2 Studies: French, Polish | Message 5 of 25 29 April 2014 at 8:02pm | IP Logged | ||
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@Luso: what do you mean for advanced level?
@Serpent: I can tell you from experience that it's easier than what it looks like. You can think of it as an idiom, if you struggle with it, as Luso said. Maybe you're focusing too much on the grammar. My girlfriend's motherlanguage is Polish, she learned by hearing and using it a few times, instead of studying it on books. If you're at an upper-intermediate level you just need to speak with someone a few times and be corrected. I think you already know, but there're some words that introduce it. - although synonyms --> sebbene, malgrado, nonostante, benché - that introducing a subordinate clause --> che - with a subordinate comparative clause --> di quello che, di quanto + sogg. - conditional sentence I'll add that in most cases if you use an indicative form, many won't notice, because they won't actually know. Tolerance is greater with ignorance. Edited by drygramul on 29 April 2014 at 8:04pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Luso Hexaglot Senior Member Portugal Joined 6061 days ago 819 posts - 1812 votes Speaks: Portuguese*, French, EnglishC2, GermanB1, Italian, Spanish Studies: Sanskrit, Arabic (classical) | Message 6 of 25 29 April 2014 at 9:04pm | IP Logged | ||
C1 or C2 level student. Seeing films in Italian without subtitles. Seeing L'albero degli zoccoli without subtitles and understanding most of the story. Writing essays without resorting to a dictionary and not making a fool of yourself. Reading texts by contemporary authors without too much difficulty. Knowing the difference between terroni and polentoni. Knowing that you probably don't use the passato remoto in your everyday life in Milan, but that you will once you move to Naples or Palermo. And, last but not least, knowing that you shouldn't order a cappuccino after noon. 5 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| iguanamon Pentaglot Senior Member Virgin Islands Speaks: Ladino Joined 5262 days ago 2241 posts - 6731 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish, Portuguese, Haitian Creole, Creole (French) | Message 7 of 25 29 April 2014 at 9:08pm | IP Logged | ||
From the perspective of a non-native speaker learner, I can tell you what helped me the most. Years ago, when I was learning Spanish, chapter six (titled "The Twilight Zone") of Breaking Out of Beginner's Spanish gave me a breakthrough in understanding the use of the subjunctive.
The Twilight Zone" was a US science fiction TV series with stories that challenged perceptions of reality. Having seen reruns of the show, and being a sci-fi fan, it made perfect sense to me. Keenan illustrates his explanations well. I especially like his reference to mariachi singers: "¡Que se vayan los mariachis!" "Will they go away? I hope that they do!" "¡Espero que se vayan!". What I like about Keenan's explanation is that it's fun. It goes a long way towards explaining the subjunctive mood conceptually. Then, along comes Portuguese with the future subjunctive and personal infinitive! Edited by iguanamon on 29 April 2014 at 9:11pm 6 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Medulin Tetraglot Senior Member Croatia Joined 4668 days ago 1199 posts - 2192 votes Speaks: Croatian*, English, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Norwegian, Hindi, Nepali | Message 8 of 25 29 April 2014 at 10:59pm | IP Logged | ||
Depois que você fizer isso = Depois de você fazer isso... 4 persons have voted this message useful |
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