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Subjunctive in the Romance languages | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Specific Languages |  | |
| Luso Hexaglot Senior Member Portugal Joined 6065 days ago 819 posts - 1812 votes  Speaks: Portuguese*, French, EnglishC2, GermanB1, Italian, Spanish Studies: Sanskrit, Arabic (classical) | Message 9 of 25 29 April 2014 at 11:15pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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I especially like The Twilight Zone reference. It's important to mention that, apart from a few fixed rules, this is one of the fields where the languages come alive.
In Italian class, we often discuss solutions to exercises. As you might expect, a group of Portuguese led by an Italian is a hotbed of creativity and originality. It's also a big confusion, but that's besides the point. Anyway... The proposed solutions to the most difficult exercises are almost always as many as the people in the room. In most cases, the teacher gives us a "yes" or "no" answer, but sometimes she has to think for a while before answering. Many times, there's not a unique answer. And others, we miss the exercise, but come up with a valid sentence. Edited by Luso on 29 April 2014 at 11:17pm 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| drygramul Tetraglot Senior Member Italy Joined 4472 days ago 165 posts - 269 votes Speaks: Persian, Italian*, EnglishC2, GermanB2 Studies: French, Polish | Message 10 of 25 29 April 2014 at 11:33pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
I'm familiar with the CEFR, but I don't know which grammar is taught/considered at >C1 level for the Italian language, out of curiosity. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| 1e4e6 Octoglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 4294 days ago 1013 posts - 1588 votes Speaks: English*, French, Spanish, Portuguese, Norwegian, Dutch, Swedish, Italian Studies: German, Danish, Russian, Catalan | Message 11 of 25 30 April 2014 at 12:06am | IP Logged | ||||||||
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I just wrote about 50 lines, and then my brilliant computer skills made me somehow
press some button to delete the entire thing in less than one second. And people ask why I still use a record player and a rotary dial telephone. Basically, the subjunctive requires practise and usage in prper context. It would be better i they taught the subjunctive along with the indicaitve from A1 and A2 at the latest. It is used for doubt, wishes, ordering, wanting, opinions, etc. It is almost exclusively used in subordinated clauses preceded by que/che. In Spanish and Portuguese, subordinated clauses mentioning the future are always rendered by the subjunctive, since in the future nothing has happened with certainty (nothing is established since it has not yet happened). There are some exceptions, the most whereof seem to occur in French, which I find uses the subjunctive the least of all of the Romance languages. ES/PT/FR/IT: Doubt: Dudo que vengas/Duvido que venhas/Je doute que tu viennes/Dubito que venga. Wishes: Espero que vengas/Espero que venhas/J'espère que tu viendras†/Spero que venga. †: French uses the indicative for «esperer que» for some reason. Want: Quería que hubiese venido/Queria que tivesse venido/Elle voulait que je fusse† venu/Lei volebbe che io fossi venuto/a †: French often uses the prsent subjunctive: Elle voualit que je vienne Order/Commands: Me ordenó que viniese/Ordenou-me que viesse/Il demanda que je vînsse/Mi ordenò che venissi Emotions: Me molesta que no hayáis venido/Incomoda-me que não tenhas vido/Il me vexe que vous n'ayez pas venu(e)s/Me dá fastidio che non abbiate venuti(e) Probability/Possibility: Es posible que vengas/É possível que venhas/Il est possible que tu viennes/È possibile che tu venga Improbability/Impossibility: No es posible que vengas/No é possível que venhas/Il n'est possible pas que tu viennes/Non è possibile che tu venga Indirect command (Have/Permit someone to do something): (Haga) que entren/(Faça) que entrem/Permettez qu'ils entrent/Permetta che loro entrino Opinions that are negated use the subjunctive: No creo que vengas/Não acho que venhas/Je ne pense pas que tu viennes/Non penso che venga† †: In Italian, affirmative opinons also take the subujunctive: Penso che venga Conditional statements/Irreality with Si/Se: Si hubieses venido, no saldríamos sin ti/Se tivesses venido, não sairiamos sem ti/Si tu fusses† venu(e), nous ne partirions pas sans toi/Se tu fossi venuto(a), non partiremmo senza ti. †: French often uses the pluperfect indicative instead of the pluperfect subjunctive: Si tu étais venu(e), nous ne partirions pas sans toi Future: Cuando hubieres† comprado el libro/Quando tiveres comprado o livro/Quand tu auras‡ acheté le livre/Quando avresti‡ comprato il livro †: Nowadays, this is replaced by the present subjunctive «hayas» ‡: In French and Italian, the indicative is used Exception to the subordinated clause rule are "I wish that" in terms of irreality, i.e.: I wish that I were more intelligent: Ojalá fuese más inteligente/Oxalá fosse mais inteligente/Si je fusse plus intelligent(e)/Magrado fossi più intelligente Another exception is wish clauses that start with que/che, which is not used often in French and Italian however: Que tengas un buen día/Que tenhas um bom dia Indefinite objects (i.e., do not exist or whose existence is not assured): Quiero un coche que funcione/Quero um auto que funcione/Je veux une voiture qui functionne/Voglio un auto che funzione Subjective indefinite (subject is unknown, is nonexistent, or is a general statement extended to include everyone, speaker knows not to whom s/he speaks): Quien venga a la fiesta, será bienvenido/Quem venha á festa, será bemvindo/Qui vienne a la fête, sera bienvenu/Chi venga alla festa, sarò benvenuto. Predicative indefinite (predicate/object unknown, viz. "Whatever you want"): Lo que quieras/O que queras/Ce que tu veuilles/Cosa voglia tu Superlative comparison, i.e. the highest degree of something "the best that I have eaten", "the tallest person who ever existed" requires the subjunctive in French and optional for the rest: La mejor sopa que jamás haya comido/A melhor sopa que jamais haja comido/La meilleur soupe que j'aie jamais mangée/La migliore zuppa che io abbia mai mangiata Other particularities: Portuguese also use the future subjunctive and personal infinitive as said above: Depois de que tiveres comprado/Depois de tu teres comprado Spanish use the imperfect subjunctive after «antes de que» and «después de que» in the past: Antes de que vinieses (since future is implied, though this time in the past), Después de que vinieses (I am unsure if there is a reason why, but it is just used anyway as a rule) In French, there is an inverted word-order that can substitute the pluperfect subjunctive: "Had it not rained..."/"Were it not for the rain..." using an inverted pluperfect indicative: N'eût-il plu... instead of, S'il n'eût pas plu... or S'il n'avait plu pas..., likewise for the imperfect subjunctive: Ne plût- il... for S'il ne plût pas... or S'il ne pleuvait pas.... Also in French, most wishes require the subjnctive, but «esperer que», which logically should require it, is an exception. It makes no sense, but it simply needs to be memorised as an exception. To use the subjunctive in conversation is extremely common,I would not be surprised if on average was used 10 times in a converstion that lasts four or five minutes. The problem is that I think that it is taught too late--the indicative for very long, then suddenly the subjunctive, which makes no sense compared to what was previously learnt. The subjunctive is not advanced, rather it iused on a basic level of communication in everyday life. To learn the use the subjunctive only after for example, years of the indicative only, I feel causes confusion. It would be like learning differential equations and only learning ODEs for years and then suddenly discovering partial differential equations (PDEs), and then being confused about such a new idea. Or ordering fish and chips, and only being brought the fish first, and the chips two hours later, or buying shoes, but only one instead of a pair. The indicative and subjunctive need to be mixed during learning, because one cannot do without the other, they complement each other in basic, intermediate, and advanced. Once you have mastered the subjunctive, a reflex should have already been developed to be prepared to use the subjunctive in subordinated clauses with automaticity, depending on if necessary or not. Also, if you see or hear the indicative instead of the subjunctive, it should sound very disgusting or odd without even contemplation, i.e., if someone says something like, «No creo que vienes» instead of the correct vengas, it sounds absolutely horrible to me. It would be at least an equivalent of someone using in English the imperfect subjunctive incorrectly, i.e. "If I was..." or messing up a strong verb preterite, "Last night I goed home late". Edited by 1e4e6 on 01 May 2014 at 2:58am 13 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Luso Hexaglot Senior Member Portugal Joined 6065 days ago 819 posts - 1812 votes Speaks: Portuguese*, French, EnglishC2, GermanB1, Italian, Spanish Studies: Sanskrit, Arabic (classical) | Message 12 of 25 30 April 2014 at 12:22am | IP Logged | ||||||||
It's not very easy to me to explain, but I'll try. In principle, when you reach the end of B2, you must have covered all the grammar. Yet there's still a lot to be said: do you use imperfetto or passato remoto? should we use si impersonale e passivante or a more simple construction? how do you use infinito passato as sostantivo? how to formulate the same thing going from a negative/subjunctive to a positive/indicative phrase? Succintly, I'd say you learn first what it is and how it's conjugated and then how and when to use. Edited by Luso on 30 April 2014 at 12:23am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6601 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 13 of 25 30 April 2014 at 1:20pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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1e4e6
WOW thank you! ♥ I actually first thought of asking in your log, but I figured I could as well start a proper topic, and I was really hoping you'd reply :) I've found the mnemonic WHEIRDO verbs, standing for Wish or will, Hope, Emotion, Impersonal expressions, Recommendations, Doubt or denial, and Opinions. As for focusing too much on the grammar, no, not really. I also love just learning from the context, and I hope to see/notice a lot of subjunctive when I start reading for the Super Challenge :) 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| jpmtl Diglot Groupie Canada Joined 4006 days ago 44 posts - 115 votes Speaks: French*, English Studies: Spanish, Russian | Message 14 of 25 30 April 2014 at 2:35pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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I'm not sure if I agree on the 'disgusting' part. It might be true for the most commonly used verbs ('faire', 'aller', etc), but natives sometimes don't use the subjonctive correctly.
Example: bouillir, as mentioned here: http://offqc.com/2014/03/22/new-video-transcription-hear-ric ardo-pronounce-the-quebecois-dzidzu-750/ Sometimes I don't remember and make up words (e.g. 'il faut que j'étudisse'). But maybe I'm just a dumb Canadian. And I believe 'if I was' is merely considered as a grammatical mistake. Edited by jpmtl on 30 April 2014 at 2:36pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Medulin Tetraglot Senior Member Croatia Joined 4672 days ago 1199 posts - 2192 votes Speaks: Croatian*, English, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Norwegian, Hindi, Nepali | Message 15 of 25 30 April 2014 at 4:40pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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While there are many similarities between Spanish and Portuguese usage of subjunctive, there are some differences:
Talvez in Portuguese is always used with subjunctive, while tal vez in Spanish is not necessarily always used with subjunctive: indicative is possible and considered correct. Funnily enough, the expression SE CALHAR (used in Portugal, synonymous with TALVEZ) always takes indicative: Se calhar ele vem mais tarde. ''Maybe he'll come later''. In Portuguese, there is a tendency to avoid subjunctive and replace it with personal infinitive, except in 1) fixed expressions: antes que seja tarde, antes que me esqueça 2) futurity in Brazilian Portuguese> Depois que você fizer isso... is as frequent as, or even more frequent than Depois de você fazer... for expressing future action before another future action... Another interesting difference, is the use of ''depois que/de '' - ''después (de) que/de'' with single past actions> 1) in Latin American Spanish and Brazilian Portuguese, ''depois que'' is used with indicative: Depois que você fez isso, todo mundo ficou irritado. Después [de] que lo hiciste, todos se molestaron. 2) in Continental Portuguese, ''depois de'' is preferentially used here, taking personal infinitive: Despois de fazeres isso, toda a gente ficou irritada. (also possible, preferred by some speakers: Depois de teres feito isso...) 3) in central and northern European Spanish (''standard RAE Spanish'') ''después de que'' takes subjunctive: Después de que lo hicieras, todos se molestaron. In extremely formal Latin American writing (more frequent in newspapers), this usage is sometimes imitated, but después de is replaced with luego de> Luego de que lo hiciera, todos se molestaron. In Spanish, personal infinitive is sometimes used (never conjugated of course; with a postverbal subject it's considered standard, while with a preverbal subject it's considered regional (Carribean usage)> Después de haberlo hecho tú/vos, todos se molestaron. This usage may not be acceptable to all speakers though, as it varies geographically, and personally/idiolectally. --- In popular speech of parts of Brazilian Southeast (states of São Paulo and Minas Gerais), subjunctive is replaced with indicative, more often than not: Quero que você me ajuda (instead of Quero que você me ajude). This usage is not considered correct by normative grammarians, but see the parallelism with the imperative form: popular S. Paulo city usage: Chora quanto quiser, eu vou embora! vs Não chora! / Quero que você me ajuda. (subjunctive is frequently avoided) popular usage in Salvador, Bahia: Chore quanto quiser, eu vou embora! vs Não chore! / Quero que você me ajude. (subjunctive is always used). --- In Latin American Spanish, present subjunctive is normally used after ''would'' conditionals, past subjunctive is considered too formal and is therefore avoided> Me gustaría que ganara ella (Spain) vs Me gustaría que gane ella (Latin America, especially Southern Cone). --- In Brazilian Portuguese, as in English, gerund can be used with ''want'' for strong prohibitions: Não quero que você fume aqui, viu!? = Não quero você fumando aqui, viu!? I don't want you to smoke (in) here, ok!? = I don't want you smoking (in) here, ok!? Edited by Medulin on 30 April 2014 at 5:16pm 4 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6601 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 16 of 25 01 May 2014 at 5:57pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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(found an exception for talvez: Ele vai, talvez, a Portugal)
So can it be said that learning the subjunctive is basically about understanding the degree of confidence/reality that various adverbs and structures convey? Edited by Serpent on 01 May 2014 at 6:04pm 1 person has voted this message useful |
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