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Text memorization and imitation | ||
Tags: Memory | Learning Strategy | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Learning Techniques, Methods & Strategies |  | |
| rjtrudel Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 6830 days ago 36 posts - 56 votes  Speaks: English*, Spanish | Message 25 of 95 24 September 2010 at 2:39am | IP Logged | ||||||||
So maybe you should start saying that although there is a less than 50% chance that I'm right, I believe MT is the best thing, or do you not include yourself in the statistics you use to dispute other peoples beliefs in what worked for them? 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Ari Heptaglot Senior Member Norway Joined 6585 days ago 2314 posts - 5695 votes Speaks: Swedish*, English, French, Spanish, Portuguese, Mandarin, Cantonese Studies: Czech, Latin, German | Message 26 of 95 24 September 2010 at 4:38am | IP Logged | ||||||||
Cainntear never disputed the students' belief in what worked for them; he disputed the author's uncritical acceptance of it as a scientific fact. When he says he believes that MT is a great course, he's making a statement equivalent to that of the students, whom he has not criticized. He is not making a statement equivalent to that of the author, whom he did criticize. Thus avoiding hypocrisy. There's a marked difference between stating a belief and writing a conclusion in a scientific paper. 10 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| slucido Bilingual Diglot Senior Member Spain https://goo.gl/126Yv Joined 6678 days ago 1296 posts - 1781 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Spanish*, Catalan* Studies: English | Message 27 of 95 24 September 2010 at 8:25am | IP Logged | ||||||||
I agree. This fighting is useless. I don't care about the "scientific thing", I want to talk about the most important high proficiency student's method = textual memorization and imitation. I would like to know about the best methods to learn foreign texts verbatim. The goal is learning this foreign language (L2) living in your own country (L1). Assimil would be a good option, because starts from a low level, it has L1 translations and the audio is L2. If you have an intermediate level, a good option might be news reports transcriptions with audio. Sitcom series with the scripts is another option. Is it better to learn them verbatim and maintain some of them in the long term memory or is it better to learn them verbatim and then forget them and start with another audio text? What do you think? And most important: How do we memorize them verbatim? 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Andy E Triglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 7106 days ago 1651 posts - 1939 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish, French | Message 28 of 95 24 September 2010 at 9:22am | IP Logged | ||||||||
Currently I'm in the Passive Wave of Assimil and reproducing L2 (even from memory) while looking at L1 would form the Active Wave. Regarding the other options, I'm leaning towards removing the first letter hint text entirely - this was always my goal long-term but I'm wondering if it's too much of a crutch. Instead what I shall probably do is use the first line of the dialog as the prompt. Alternatively, it may be possible to have no hint at all other than the lesson title which is probably the ideal but may make it more difficult without adding some other memory trigger. Another reason.... I'm intrigued to know whether I actually need to bother with the Active Wave at all. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Andy E Triglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 7106 days ago 1651 posts - 1939 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish, French | Message 29 of 95 24 September 2010 at 9:27am | IP Logged | ||||||||
Currently I'm leaning towards the former(and I may add the advanced Assimil courses to the mix as well). However, it's entirely possible that the excitement of reciting "der Tee ist gut, wie ist der Tee, er ist gut" may fade somewhat when it pops up in Anki in 6 months time.
I'm open to any other suggested techniques other than the one I outlined above. Time efficiency when learning is the key goal for me together with maintaining the knowledge long-term. Edited by Andy E on 24 September 2010 at 9:28am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| slucido Bilingual Diglot Senior Member Spain https://goo.gl/126Yv Joined 6678 days ago 1296 posts - 1781 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Spanish*, Catalan* Studies: English | Message 30 of 95 24 September 2010 at 9:58am | IP Logged | ||||||||
I am thinking about a combination between the Loci method and your first letter method. Every lesson in a loci and then a chain with one keyword image for every sentence. Training with the keyword sentence and the first letter method seems a good method to practice recalling every lesson. Listening the audio while reading and then chorusing many times is very important. We need to be sure that our pronunciation and prosody is as good as possible when we recite aloud verbatim using this mnemonic devices. Writing the lesson as you recite them is another important technique. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Cainntear Pentaglot Senior Member Scotland linguafrankly.blogsp Joined 6014 days ago 4399 posts - 7687 votes Speaks: Lowland Scots, English*, French, Spanish, Scottish Gaelic Studies: Catalan, Italian, German, Irish, Welsh | Message 31 of 95 24 September 2010 at 10:07am | IP Logged | ||||||||
The idiom principle/lexico-grammar cuts both ways. It is clear that we can and do learn fixed phrases, but we learn these in our first language by hearing them significantly more often than similar original and/or spontaneous sentences. It seems likely that if we expose ourselves frequently to an original, non-fixed phrase, we will learn it as a fixed phrase. The paper quite aptly demonstrates this:
A better sentence by what criteria? To me it is rather stuffy and overly formal. It seems quite archaic -- I can imagine one of the Brontë sisters' characters saying it. It is superficially a good sentence in many ways, but it represents a flawed internal model. All speakers favour language that is easy to recall. It's easier to recall a fixed phrase than reconstruct it from first principles. This appears to lead to overuse of fixed phrases. I had a friend who learned "out of the blue" and overused it massively, using it when it wasn't appropriate, and I've heard an awful lot of the same type of "idiom abuse" from foreign learners since. Edited by Cainntear on 24 September 2010 at 10:16am 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Sandman Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 5411 days ago 168 posts - 389 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish Studies: Japanese | Message 32 of 95 24 September 2010 at 10:43am | IP Logged | ||||||||
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From reading the article it sounds like the students had all spent a truly massive # of hours studying and using this method, which at least to me suggests it might not be all that efficient of a way to go about things. But with all the memorization and imitation of real native language I can see how a very good feel for the language would be eventually ensured.
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