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Team Катюша - TAC 2014 - TEAM THREAD | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Language Learning Log |  | |
| Solfrid Cristin Heptaglot Winner TAC 2011 & 2012 Senior Member Norway Joined 5335 days ago 4143 posts - 8864 votes  Speaks: Norwegian*, Spanish, Swedish, French, English, German, Italian Studies: Russian | Message 241 of 464 06 April 2014 at 11:10am | IP Logged | |||||
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Mark, grammar most definitely can be learned that way, but it takes time. Children typically need 2-3 years
with constant correction. Give me two years of doing Russian only, and with someone correcting me all the time, and I would not need any grammar rules either. Otherwise, andy123, it is no problem to create the immersion input, but how do you get the most vital part, which is where someone corrects your mistakes? And I am not altogether convinced that being a native speaker is a fool proof solution either, since every Russian teacher I ever had insist that Russians spend years on learning how to write properly, and many never learn how to write absolutely correctly. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Josquin Heptaglot Senior Member Germany Joined 4845 days ago 2266 posts - 3992 votes Speaks: German*, English, French, Latin, Italian, Russian, Swedish Studies: Japanese, Irish, Portuguese, Persian | Message 242 of 464 06 April 2014 at 1:09pm | IP Logged | |||||
It's not what you write, but the way you write it. You always start arguing and get very intense about questions of detail, e.g. whether to call a rule a spelling rule or a phonological rule. When somebody disagrees with you, you get even more intense and won't give up until you're proven right. I think it's not too difficult to understand that this kind of behaviour leads to criticism. If you discussed the problem in a neutral, relaxed, and friendly way, nobody would have a problem with you, but I sometimes get the impression correct Russian pronunciation is a matter of life and death to you. Let me tell you, it's not! If I got upset about every Englishman who is unable to distinguish between u and ü or every Frenchman who can't pronounce an h, I would probably already have had a heart attack. Perfection in a foreign language is the goal, but we will always make mistakes, even if we can tell apart ш from щ and know that и after ш is pronounced ы. But this is not the end of the world! Of course, for a native speaker, these differences are trivial and everyone who can't produce them correctly sounds a bit silly, but that's something that both the foreigner and the native speaker have to live with. This is not to say we shouldn't strive for perfect pronunciation, but it's merely human that we won't always reach that goal. And while listening and imitating work fine for learning pronunciation, grammar is way too complicated to learn it that way if we aren't in a total immersion situation. Edited by Josquin on 06 April 2014 at 1:11pm 7 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| andy123 Newbie Russian Federation Joined 4319 days ago 14 posts - 19 votes Speaks: Russian* Studies: English, Spanish | Message 243 of 464 06 April 2014 at 5:00pm | IP Logged | |||||
skype, as I said. I'm not trying to say it is very easy to organize an immersion way being at home. I'm only saying it is possible.
in my opinion, there is two way to study a native language, as always. one way - you already can write about 99% correct (because it looks natural for you), but still you study hundreds of those rules to be sure in that 1%, so you can proof yourself you're right. another way - just memorize that 1% and never learn even one rule. of course you don't have to memorize all possible combination of all words, you just already know in your mind that in this particular situation you have to write that way. it's like some sort of experience, or some sort of reflex, it comes from a lot of practice (at least you have to read very much). for some people first way is much easy, for another - vice versa. I do not insist on either. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Марк Senior Member Russian Federation Joined 5057 days ago 2096 posts - 2972 votes Speaks: Russian* | Message 244 of 464 06 April 2014 at 7:52pm | IP Logged | |||||
Your impression is wrong.
This has nothing to do with me. I've never written that learners of Russian must have native-like accent. I've been always against the way textbooks explain it and I argued against those who defend the textbooks, and I have always given arguments. Edited by Марк on 06 April 2014 at 8:12pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Марк Senior Member Russian Federation Joined 5057 days ago 2096 posts - 2972 votes Speaks: Russian* | Message 245 of 464 06 April 2014 at 8:11pm | IP Logged | |||||
No one learns. It is impossible to write bsolutely correctly. Russian has rather nasty orthograph and very complex punctuation. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| tarvos Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member China likeapolyglot.wordpr Joined 4708 days ago 5310 posts - 9399 votes Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish | Message 246 of 464 06 April 2014 at 8:24pm | IP Logged | |||||
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Textbooks are generally lacking in the
pronunciation department. Russian is no worse off than French or Romanian in this regard. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Марк Senior Member Russian Federation Joined 5057 days ago 2096 posts - 2972 votes Speaks: Russian* | Message 247 of 464 06 April 2014 at 8:30pm | IP Logged | |||||
Russian textbooks often have detailed explanations of phonetics. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| tarvos Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member China likeapolyglot.wordpr Joined 4708 days ago 5310 posts - 9399 votes Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish | Message 248 of 464 06 April 2014 at 8:33pm | IP Logged | |||||
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The ones I have seen are marginally better
than the English ones. But not better than other bases. I own one for Serbian which is okay. 1 person has voted this message useful |
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