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TAC 2009-2011 Fasulye’s Turkish / Danish | ||
Tags: Study Group | Class Learning | L3 via L2 | Danish | Self-Study | Turkish | Textbooks | Total Annihilation Challenge (TAC) | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Language Learning Log |  | |
 Fasulye Heptaglot Winner TAC 2012 Moderator Germany fasulyespolyglotblog Joined 5840 days ago 5460 posts - 6006 votes  1 sounds Speaks: German*, DutchC1, EnglishB2, French, Italian, Spanish, Esperanto Studies: Latin, Danish, Norwegian, Turkish Personal Language Map | Message 153 of 868 10 April 2009 at 4:39pm | IP Logged | ||
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Saturday, 10 April 2009
EXPERIMENT: MY OWN TRANSLATION COMPETES WITH GOOGLE MACHINE TRANSLATON Referring to the above mentioned grammar topic of Unit 17 of "Güle Güle" I invented three simple English sentences using the auxiliaries "must" and "need" and let Google translate them into Turkish. Afterwards it was my turn to translate them by using the grammar structures I have learned in Unit 17. Original English sentences: Fatma must go to the train station. Ayse needs a kilo of apples and pears. I must do some shopping. Google machine translation: Fatma tren istasyonuna gitmek gerekir. Ayşe elma ve armut bir kg ihtiyacı var. Bazı alışveriş yapmak gerekir. My own translation: Fatma'nın istasyona gitmesi lazım. Ayşe'ye bir kilosu elma ve armut lazım. Benim biraz alışveriş yapmam lazım. Who would like to comment on the results? Fasulye-Babylonia Edited by Fasulye on 10 April 2009 at 7:00pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
 magister Pro Member United States Joined 6596 days ago 346 posts - 421 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Turkish, Irish Personal Language Map | Message 154 of 868 10 April 2009 at 7:07pm | IP Logged | ||
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I think your little experiment has yielded an expected result: Never trust machine translation.
By the way, another way to express obligation ("must; have to") is with the suffix -meli, -malı: Fatma istasyona gitmeli. Alışveriş yapmalım. Do you ever use the Google search box to check your language usage? "Alışveriş yapmak" struck me as odd; it didn't feel Turkish to me. I would have used "Alışveriş etmek" instead. But when I searched for the phrase with yapmak, I found zillions of examples of it out there in the wild. It's really a very handy tool to verify actual language usage as against the textbooks. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Fasulye Heptaglot Winner TAC 2012 Moderator Germany fasulyespolyglotblog Joined 5840 days ago 5460 posts - 6006 votes 1 sounds Speaks: German*, DutchC1, EnglishB2, French, Italian, Spanish, Esperanto Studies: Latin, Danish, Norwegian, Turkish Personal Language Map | Message 155 of 868 10 April 2009 at 7:17pm | IP Logged | ||
Thank your for your comment, magister! In our Turkish lessons I have learned only alışveriş yapmak, but according to my dictionary both combinations are possible with yapmak and with etmek. It is analogous to kahvaltı yapmak or etmek, which are both possible as well. I have never checked any vocabulary by using Google, no. Fasulye-Babylonia Edited by Fasulye on 10 April 2009 at 7:20pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Fasulye Heptaglot Winner TAC 2012 Moderator Germany fasulyespolyglotblog Joined 5840 days ago 5460 posts - 6006 votes 1 sounds Speaks: German*, DutchC1, EnglishB2, French, Italian, Spanish, Esperanto Studies: Latin, Danish, Norwegian, Turkish Personal Language Map | Message 156 of 868 13 April 2009 at 10:55pm | IP Logged | ||
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Monday, 13 April 2009
IMPLEMENTING AND ADAPTING IVERSEN'S WORDLIST METHOD FOR MY TURKISH VOCABULARY LEARNING Let me first quote my adaption of Iversen's method as I wrote it in his Multiconfused log and let me afterwards give my comment on it in English. IT: Durante il mio viaggio nel treno ho pripensato i miei concetti dei "wordlists" d'Iversen. Questo sono gli elementi importanti per me: 1. Voglio utilizzare un foglio A4 di traverso con 4 colonne di 6 - 7 cm. 2. La colonna tutto a destra e la mia colonna di base per le parole / gli esprimi della lingua L1. 3. La struttura (dalla destra alla sinistra) e: L1 tedesco - L2 turco - L1 tedesco - L2 turco 4. Non scrivo soltanto parole ma anche esprimi come per esempio "schwarzer Kaffee" (L1) "sade kahve"(L2) 5. Per foglio scrivero 15 parole / esprimi per poter kvantificare il vocabulario dopo. 6. Non utilizzo fogli separati, ma scrivo queste 4 colonne in una foglio doppio del mio quaderno A5 dei vocaboli. 7. Ho scelto per la lingua L1 (tedesco) il colore rosso e per la lingua L2 (turco) il colore azzurro. Un principio grave per me e aprendere delle parole sempre L1 fino a L2. Anche per me e un vantaggio di non apprendere soltanto parole (come Iversen lo fa), pero anche esprimi utlili, perché posso bene memorizzargli. PS: Ho gia provato questo methodo d'Iversen un po' variato e vedo, che funzioni molto bene e mi piacia questo. Per me erano necessari gli spiegazioni di oggi, perché non avevo mai capito il metodo. Ma adesso era chiaro per me. Questo consiglio era utile per me comminciare al lado destro con il schema, perché altrimenti avessi avuto problemi scrivendo con la mano sinistra. EN: Generally speaking and especially for those readers of my log who don't understand Itialian. L1 = basic language, this CAN be the native language L2 = target language Iversen's wordlist columns work alternating which can be: L1 - L2 - L1 - L2 - L1 - L2 - L1 .......ad infintium L2 - L1 - L2 - L1 - L2 - L1 - L2 .......ad infintium So it's a matter of space how many columns you can make. And it's a matter of taste whether you use L1 or L2 for your basic column. My learning has always been directed from the basic language to the target language, as I want to focus more on active usage than on mere passive understanding. So I would always use the basic language L1 for my basic column. NB: The wordlist method as Iversen describes it himself is based on right-handed writing, because he places the basic column on the left side and from there he starts the alternation of L1 and L2 / or L2 and L1. As Iversen does it het writes one column and then he covers it with his left hand or with somthing else. As I always wrote my own vocabulary books - very traditionally - from the left to the right (first column Turkish / second column German), I had never understood the trick of Iversen's method, because I - as have I tested it today - for left-handed writing it just doesn't work, if you start with the first column on the left side. I was very lucky that Iversen in his log himself gave the hint that for lefthanders the whole column structure has to be reversed. Then it works perfect, because I can cover columns with a sheet of paper on the right side. So this gives also me the chance to implement (with the adaptions I describe in my Italian quote) Iversen's wordlist method for my Turkish vocabulary learning. Fasulye-Babylonia Edited by Fasulye on 13 April 2009 at 11:50pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Fasulye Heptaglot Winner TAC 2012 Moderator Germany fasulyespolyglotblog Joined 5840 days ago 5460 posts - 6006 votes 1 sounds Speaks: German*, DutchC1, EnglishB2, French, Italian, Spanish, Esperanto Studies: Latin, Danish, Norwegian, Turkish Personal Language Map | Message 157 of 868 14 April 2009 at 8:33pm | IP Logged | ||
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Tuesday, 14 April 2009 = Salı, 14 nisan 2009
OUR PRIVATE TURKISH STUDY GROUP IN THE LIBRARY I always look forward very much to our study meetings. We both find it motivating to have some study interchange. Today we went through Unit 17 of our "Güle Güle" workbook, but there are still three excercises left, because we couldn't finish it in one hour time. Why so? Because W. presented me a grammar topic and we both started analizing it. As we are both very interested in grammar, it happens regularly that one of us feels the need to have something analized and we start a conversation about grammar. In my opinion this is rewarding and cannot be counted as "lost time", even if we cannot finish our unit on this day. Another topic of this evening was the word counting of our target language. For myself word counting of a foreign language is completely new, because I have never felt the need before to count the words of any of my foreign languages. As W. is a mathematical type of person, for him it is quite a natural idea to count the words of his target language. So now we are both motivated to keep track on the quantitive development of our Turkish vocabulary. When I started the TAC 2009 I had already worked through the units 1-9 of our book, which comprise ca. 450 words or expressions. The only problems W. and I have so far is that our word counts are not yet normed, because the vocabulary of the unit contains a lot of whole expressions, not only words, whereas the vocabulary lists in the back of the textbook contain only the mere words. So we may end up "comparing apples with pears". In next week's study session we will have to finish the excercises of Unit 17 in our workbook and at home we will start preparing Unit 18 of "Güle Güle". Fasulye-Babylonia Edited by Fasulye on 14 April 2009 at 9:49pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Fasulye Heptaglot Winner TAC 2012 Moderator Germany fasulyespolyglotblog Joined 5840 days ago 5460 posts - 6006 votes 1 sounds Speaks: German*, DutchC1, EnglishB2, French, Italian, Spanish, Esperanto Studies: Latin, Danish, Norwegian, Turkish Personal Language Map | Message 158 of 868 20 April 2009 at 8:07pm | IP Logged | ||
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Maandag, 20 April 2009
ZELFSTUDIE TURKS NL: Ik ben een beetje geneigd om al die leuke Franstalige podcasts op het internet te beluisteren, die ik hier van meerdere forumleden heb aanbevolen gekregen. Dat is zeer verleidelijk, maar ik moet toch ook weer met mijn taalproject Turks aan de slag gaan, want anders gaat mijn studieritme achteruit. Ik ben nu met les 18 van "Güle Güle" bezig, gedeeltelijk hadden wij die al op de volskuniversiteit doorgenomen, maar een deel van deze les is volledig nieuw voor mij. Dat wil zeggen, dat ik nu ook mijn voorsprong kwijt ben en nu moet ik net zo hard studeren als mijn studiepartner Turks. In een gevarieerde vorm werk ik nu met Iversens woordenlijst methode, hetgeen meer schrijfwerk betekent, maar ik merk dat het voor mij effectief is. Want ik ben een mens die het gewend is om alles en nog wat opteschrijven en om daardoor dingen te onthouden. Dus tot nu toe gaat het goed met deze innovatie. Wat onze studiegroup betreft, mijn studiepartner is ook in de Nederlandse taal geinteresseerd en zou wat basiskennis ervan willen leren. Maar ik heb hem dat afgeraden, want dan zou hij minder tijd hebben voor de voorbereiding van onze werkgroep Turks. Ik ben natuurlijk geinteresseerd dat wij met zo'n tempo verder studeren als tot nu toe. Onze volgende studiegroep zal deze week op woensdagavond plaatsvinden. EN: Our next study meeting will take place on Wednesday evening this week. Fasulye-Babylonia Edited by Fasulye on 20 April 2009 at 8:10pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Fasulye Heptaglot Winner TAC 2012 Moderator Germany fasulyespolyglotblog Joined 5840 days ago 5460 posts - 6006 votes 1 sounds Speaks: German*, DutchC1, EnglishB2, French, Italian, Spanish, Esperanto Studies: Latin, Danish, Norwegian, Turkish Personal Language Map | Message 159 of 868 22 April 2009 at 8:19pm | IP Logged | ||
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Wednesday, 22 April 2009 = Çarşamba, 22 nisan 2009
OUR TURKISH STUDY GROUP IN THE LIBRARY One day later than ususally I met my studypartner W. to continue our Trukish studygroup. Our first task was to go through the rest of the excercises of Unhi 17 of our workbook "Güle Güle". I had some grammar faults, so I found it helpful that I could compare my solution with that of my studypartner. Afterwards we started with Unit 18 of the textbook "Güle Güle" with the title "Doğum günün kutlu olsun" = Happy birthday. Unit 18 deals with all kinds of different wishes. Here are some examples: Turkish celebration wishes: 1. Yeni yılın kutlu olsun! = Happy new year! 2. Doğum günün kutlu olsun! = Happy birthday! 3. Mutluklar dilerim! = I wish you good luck! 4. Nice yıllara! = Many years! This evening we focused quite a lot on reading the dialoges over and over again by changing roles. The grammar topic of Unit 18 is in German called "die Fähigkeitsform" (can, to be able to) and "die Unfähigkeitsform" (cannot, not to be able to). Perhaps, magister, you can tell me how the exact English expressions are called, as my grammar explanations are all in German. These forms -ebilmek, -abilmek can be combined with both Turkish Present Tenses. 1. Şimdiki zaman: ben gelebiliyorum = ich kann kommen (positive) sen gelebiliyorsun o gelebiliyor biz gelebiliyoruz siz gelebiliyorsunuz onlar gelebiliyor / gelebiliyorlar ben gelmebiliyorsun = ich kann nicht kommen (negative) sen gelmebiliyorsun o gelmebiliyor biz gelmebiliyoruz siz gelmebiliyorsunuz onlar gelmebiliyor / gelmebiliyorlar 2. Geniş zaman ben yazabilirim = ich kann schreiben (positive) sen yazabilirsin o yazabilir biz yazabiliriz siz yazabilirsiniz onlar yazabilir / yazarbilirler ben yazamam = ich kann nicht schreiben (negative) sen yazamazsın o yazamaz biz yazamayız siz yazamazsınız onlar yazamaz / yazamazlar Unfortunately, our "Güle Güle" book only presents the -ebilmek, -abilmek forms only in the "geniş zaman" tense, so this is a bit limited. For me it was not difficult to find out the other verb forms, because they are built very logically for those learners who are familiar with the normal forms of the "şimdiki zaman" tense. So we worked through parts of Unit 18 of the textbook "Güle Güle" this evening and we will continue preparing this unit for our next studygroup meeting on Wednesday next week. Fasulye-Babylonia Edited by Fasulye on 22 April 2009 at 8:34pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| magister Pro Member United States Joined 6596 days ago 346 posts - 421 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Turkish, Irish Personal Language Map | Message 160 of 868 23 April 2009 at 7:02pm | IP Logged | ||
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Hi Fasulye,
To answer your question, the Fähigkeitsform and Unfähigkeitsform are usually called abilitative and negative abilitative, respectively. I've also seen the term "potential" instead. You're right -- it's not difficult to figure out how to form the abilitative in other tenses, thanks to the very regular "building block" system of Turkish agglutination: Future: yazabileceğim, yazabileceksin, etc. Past: yazabildim, yazabildin, etc. Of course, you can also combine the abilitative with the so-called "necessitative" [-meli, -malı], as in yazabilmelisiniz (you ought to be able to write). :-) 1 person has voted this message useful |
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