TAC 2009-2011 Fasulye’s Turkish / Danish (Language Learning Log) Language Learning Forum

TAC 2009-2011 Fasulye’s Turkish / Danish
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Johannes
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Message 225 of 868

12 July 2009 at 6:47pm | IP Logged

Ertugrul wrote:

About hangisi and ikisi question…

Turkish and English have similar adjective clause patterns. That is: adjective + noun

For English it is “red apple”: red (adjective) apple (noun)
For Turkish it is “kırmızı elma”: kırmızı (adjective) elma (noun)

Hangi is an interrogative adjective (TR: soru sıfatı) for Turkish, which simply means which in English.

You use it in a question like: "Which apple is red?".

Since here which is an interrogative adjective, it must be used with a noun.

ENG: Which apple is red?
TR: Hangi elma kırmızı(dır)? -> The complementary verb “dır” as verb “to be” may not be used.

Which (interrogative adjective) apple (noun) …
Hangi (soru sıfatı) elma (ad)…

Hangisi is an interrogative pronoun (TR: soru zamiri”) for Turkish, which literally means of which and which of (it/them) or which one in English.

You use it in a question like: “Which (one) is red?” or “Which (of them) is red?”.

Since here which (one) is an interrogative pronoun, there isn’t a noun after it.

ENG: Which (one) is red?
TR: Hangisi kırmızı(dır)? The complementary verb “dır” as verb “to be” may not be used.

Which (one) (interrogative pronoun) + is (verb) + red (complement)
Hangisi (soru zamiri) + kırmızı (complement) + (dır) (complementary verb)

There are seemingly many objects, and have different colors. But the one who uses “which one is red?” question is asking that which of these (e.g. apples) are being red.
As it is a pronoun, it’s used for taking part for a noun. This pronoun’s job in a phrase is identifying the Subject of the sentence. In English it can considered as “which of it/them” or simply “which one”.

The suffix “+s+i” makes the interrogative adjective hangi to the interrogative pronoun hangi+s+i”.

The derivation of hangisi is complicated a bit.
Before checking out its structural pattern, we must already know genitive case for possessive clauses with having two words as Word1 and Word2.

As I mentioned on my previous messages; its main pattern is: “Word1+in” “Word2+i”.
This means in “Word2 of Word1” in English.

1st Case: Both W1 and W2 end with a consonant letter.

The main structure is “W1+ in” “W2+ i".
Due to the vowel harmony, both -in and -ı suffixes transforms to -ın, un, ün and -ı, -u, -ü respectively.

Example: At+ın hız+ı.

It means the speed of the horse. As you see, the “W1+in” “W2+i” structure becomes “W1+ın” “W+ı” pattern because of the vowel harmony.

2nd Case: Only W1 ends with a vowel letter.

The main structure is “W1+ n+ in” “W2+ i"
Due to the vowel harmony suffixes may transform here in too.

Example: Araba+n+ın hız+ı. It means the speed of the car.

“-n” is the buffer letter here to be used in this case. The first word (W1: “araba”) ends with a vowel “-a” letter. When “araba” is conjoint with “-ın” which starts with a vowel “ı" letter, buffer “-n” letter is added between vowels.

3rd Case:Only W2 ends with a vowel letter.
The main structure is “W1+in” “W2+s+i"
Due to the vowel harmony suffixes may transform here in too.

Example: At+ın yele+s+i. It means the mane of the horse.

“-s” is the buffer letter here to be used in this case. The second word (W2: “pire”) ends with a vowel “-e”. When “pire” is conjoint with “-i" which is vowel letter itself, “-s” buffer letter is added between vowels.

In 4th Case, both W1 and W2 ends with a vowel letter, so the structure is “W1+n+in” “W2+s+i".

After reminding this grammatical aspect, let’s have a look at hangisi.

bunların hangisi… It means “which of these…”
bunlar+ın hangi+s+i

As you can see, it is the 3rd Case for Possessive Clauses for genitive cases. Because hangi ends with a vowel letter it must take a buffer letter when conjoint with a letter starting with a vowel letter. This buffer letter must be “-s” since hangi is positioned on the second word (W2).

bunların hangisi can be simplified as hangisi and it still has the meaning of bunların in it morphology and semantic. So hangisi means which of these/them or which one.

İkisi means both of (them) . Like in the example of hangisi it has the same genitive structure too. “+s+ i" suffix makes it a pronoun. Unlike in hangisi it is not an interrogative pronoun.

ENG: Both men went. (In adjective case)
TR: İki adam gitti. (Sıfat durumunda)

ENG: Both (of them) went. (In pronoun case)
TR: İkisi gitti. (Zamir durumunda)

I wish, I’d explained it shortly :)

Hi Ertugrul,

thank you for your perfect and extensiv explanation!!
Am I right, if I draw the following conclusion:

Four men went.
Dört adam gitti.

Four (of them) went or all four went
Dördü gitti?

Johannes

Edited by Johannes on 12 July 2009 at 6:52pm
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Ertugrul
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Studies: Arabic (Written)

Message 226 of 868

13 July 2009 at 7:53am | IP Logged

@Fasulye,

Morphology: is the formatting of a phrase, a sentence or a word. It is the visual body of letters-aggregate.

Semantic: relates with the meaning of a phrase, a sentence or a word. It is the unseen soul of letters-aggregate.

(Both definitions are completely my personal idea)

I do/have not studied linguistics in university. But my job is translating.

You know, you must have intermediate level linguistics and grammatical aspects/terms in both languages to make a good translation.

@Johannes,

You are welcome; I hope I’d be helpful.

Your conclusion is totally correct.

“dört” in “dört adam” phrase is an adjective.
And “dördü” is pronoun.

And you’ve already noticed that “-t” letter transforms to “-d” when conjoint with a suffix starting a vowel letter due to consonant assimilation.

Congratulations…

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Fasulye
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Message 227 of 868

13 July 2009 at 7:25pm | IP Logged

INFO

This week we have to postpone our Turkish study meeting to Thursday, 16-07-2009

Fasulye and Johannes
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Fasulye
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Message 228 of 868

14 July 2009 at 4:21pm | IP Logged

Tuesday, 14 July 2009 - Salı, 14 temmuz 2009

We have no study group today, so I have just got the inspiration to practise my Turkish:

Hava Krefeld'de nasıl?

Bugün hava güneşli ve çok sıkıntılı. Aşağı yukarı otuz derece var. Hava Türkiye'de nasıl?
Denizde yüzmek istiyorum, ama burada deniz yok, maalesef. Onun yerine evde kalıyorum ve vantilatör kullanıyorum. In het Nederlands zeg ik altijd: "Het is weer ventilator weer!" Bana bu sıkıntılı hava çok kötü, çünkü vantilatörsüz kütüphanede dil öğrenmek veya bilemsel dergi (EDIT) okumak zor. Ama vantilatörlü evde ögrenmek mümkün.

Kelimeler:

sıkıntlı = drückend
derece = Grad
kütüphane = Bibliothek
bilemsel dergi / bilim dergisi (EDIT) = wissenschaftliche Zeitschrift
aşağı yukarı = ungefähr

Fasulye

Johannes, bu (EDIT) havayi seviyor musun?

Edited by Fasulye on 15 July 2009 at 2:16pm
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Ertugrul
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Turkey
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Speaks: Turkish*, English
Studies: Arabic (Written)

Message 229 of 868

15 July 2009 at 1:10pm | IP Logged

@Fasulye, these are my corrections. But your Turkish seems to being got better in progress.

"bilemsel dergisi = wissenschaftliche Zeitschrift"

If you meant scientific journal here then Turkish equal should be bilimsel dergi or bilim dergisi.

"Johannes, bunu havayi seviyor musun?"

If you meant "Do you like this weather, Johannes?" here then Turkish equal should be "Johannes, bu havayı seviyor musun?".

But if you meant more lyrically "Johannes, do you like this, the weather?" here then its equaly is what you've written as "Johannes, bunu, havayı seviyor musun?".
It sounds like a drammatical poem or something.

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Fasulye
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Message 230 of 868

15 July 2009 at 1:31pm | IP Logged

Ertugrul wrote:

Ertugurul, your correction is - as always - helpful to me!

I just wanted to ask my studypartner: Do you like this weather? and I was unsure whether I have to use "bu" in the nominative or "bunu" in the accusative. But you made this clear to me.

"bilemsel dergi" is a very important word for me because I like to read these kind of magazines and therefore I will need to use this word more often.

I still have quite a deficit in free writing of Turkish. If I know a suitable topic to write about, I should do this more often.

Hosca kal,

Fasulye

Edited by Fasulye on 15 July 2009 at 2:05pm
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Fasulye
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Message 231 of 868

15 July 2009 at 6:31pm | IP Logged

Wednesday, 15 July 2009 = Çarşamba, 15 temmuz 2009

FOR PRACTICE: A LITTLE ESSAY ABOUT THE CHESS GAME IN TURKISH

I have just returned back home from my chess group and this inspires me to write an essay on chess playing in Turkish:

SATRANÇ OYNAMAK = Playing chess

Ben satranç oyunucusuyum (EDIT). Çok yıldan önce kursta satranç oyunmayi (EDIT) öğrendim. Dört yıl boyunca (= 4 Jahre lang) satranç kulübünde satranç oynadim (EDIT). Satranç oyunu mantikli (EDIT) ve çok enteresan bir oyun, ama kolay değil. Benim şehrimde (EDIT) bir satranç grubu yaşlılar (EDIT) için var ve burada satranç oynuyorum. Ben en gencim (EDIT), ama zararı yok (= das macht nichts).

Türkiye'de birçok insan (EDIT) tavla (= Backgammon) oynuyor. Tavla daha oynayamam. Tavla zor bir oyun mu? Buna (EDIT) inanmıyorum. Satranç tavladan daha zor! Siz tavlayi biliyor musunuz (EDIT)?

As far as I don't have to work, I would like to write more little essays like this. This is the kind of language practice I really need.

Selamlar,

Fasulye

According to Ertugrul's corrections I have edited my essay.

Edited by Fasulye on 16 July 2009 at 2:32pm
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Fasulye
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Message 232 of 868

16 July 2009 at 8:28am | IP Logged

SATRANÇ OYNAMAK = Playing chess (HYPERLITERAL TRANSLATION)

Iversen is the expert for hyperlitaral translations, but I have never made any. He made so many Danish hyperlitarals for me - which I very much appreciate - that I would like to reciproke with a Turkish one.

Ben satranç oyunucusu-yum.
I chess player-am.

Çok yıldan önce kursta satranç oyunmayi öğrendim.
Many years ago in-course chess playing I-learned.

Dört yıl boyunca satranç kulübünde satranç oynadim.
Four years long in chess club I-played.

Satranç oyunu mantikli ve çok enteresan bir oyun, ama kolay değil.
Chess game logical and very interesting a game, but easy not.

Benim şehrimde bir satranç grubu yaşlılar için var ve burada satranç oynuyorum.
My in city a chess group elderly people for there-is and there chess I-play.

Ben en gencim, ama zararı yok.
I the youngest-am, but not matters.

Türkiye'de birçok insan tavla oynuyor.
In Turkey many people backgammon play.

Tavla daha oynayamam.
Backgammon not yet I-can-play.

Tavla zor bir oyun mu?
Backgammon difficult a game?

Buna inanmıyorum.
This I-not-beleive.

Satranç tavladan daha zor!
Chess than backgammon more difficult!

Siz tavlayi biliyor musunuz?
You backgammon do-you-know?

This hyperlitaral translation shows the agglutinative structure of the Turkish language and that the Turkish verb "olmak" = "to be" is defective and is left out when using the Present Tense.

This is my tribute to Iversen, but I think that many other people who don't speak Turkish, will find such hyperlitarals interesting. By the way, I find it easier to translate hyperlitterally than making a normal translations.

Fasulye

According to Ertugurul's corrections I have also edit this verson of my chess essay, so that people will not have to read my mistakes.

Edited by Fasulye on 16 July 2009 at 2:50pm

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