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TAC 2009-2011 Fasulye’s Turkish / Danish | ||
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| Ertugrul Diglot Groupie Turkey Joined 5655 days ago 63 posts - 124 votes  Speaks: Turkish*, English Studies: Arabic (Written) | Message 257 of 868 30 July 2009 at 4:36pm | IP Logged |
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Thank you for your good thoughts, Fasulye. Horray, I have a fan :P LoL. Let’s have a look at your sentences: "Türk yiyecek Almanya'da" The adverbs defining the places generally are used in the beginning of a phrase, especially in not-completed titles. And “food” or “yiyecek” generally is used in plural form as “yiyecekler” again especially in titles. Natively, word order should be as “Almanya’da Türk Yiyecekleri”. "Şehrimde çok Türk yiyecekler almyabilir ve yiyebilir." Well, that’s not a well-designed sentence, frankly. In English “You can buy and eat many Turkish foods in my city.” There are two verbs here as you see. Both verbs are referring to the 2nd person plural in polite form. You speak generally to the reader. Personal suffix for 2nd person plural is “-siniz”. You need to use personal suffix “-siniz” at the end of the verbs. And it should be definite possessive noun construction since it is the definite object such as “Türk yiyecekler+i”. You should write as “Şehrimde birçok Türk yiyecekleri alabilirsiniz ve yiyebilirsiniz. ” Or you can use the personal suffix (“-siniz") only at the end of the latter verb: You should write as “Şehrimde birçok Türk yiyecekleri alabilir ve yiyebilirsiniz. ” Or the first verb is shortened to “alıp” by adding only “-ip” suffix to the root of the first verb and deleting “ve” conjunction between verbs in sentences containing multiple-verbs: So it is “Şehrimde birçok Türk yiyecekleri alıp yiyebilirsiniz. ” "Vesaire Türk lokantalar var." You’ve used “for example” in English translation. The proper response for it in Turkish is “örnek olarak” (shortly “örneğin”) or “mesela” (shortly “misal”). Since it should be definite possessive noun construction it should be “Türk lokantalar+ı". So the sentence should be “Örneğin, Türk lokantaları var. ” "Burada pide yiyebilir ve Türk çay içebilir." Ok, let’s examine it. Firstly, that should be “Türk çay+ı” since it is a definite possessive construction (TR: “belirtili ad tamlaması”). You write in English “You can eat ‘pide’ and drink Turkish tea”. There are two verbs here as you see. Both verbs are referring to the 2nd person plural in polite form, you speak generally to the reader. Personal suffix is “-siniz”. Burada pide yiyebilirsiniz (1st sentence) .. ve Türk çayı içebilirsiniz (2nd sentence) If we combine them it is “Burada pide yiyebilirsiniz ve Türk çayı içebilirsiniz”. Or you can say: “Burada pide yiyebilir ve Türk çayı içebilirsiniz”. Or more natively and shortly you can say: “Burada pide yiyip Türk çayı içebilirsiniz”. "Daha popüler Türk fast-foodtur." Here, the subject of the sentence is needed to be defined. You say “More popular (one) is the Turkish fast-food” in English. The subject of the sentence is “more popular (one)”. Since “fast-food” is a loanword derived from English, we pronounce it as just like in English Again it is needed to be defined by adding “-i” suffix and it transforms to “-u” due to vowel harmony. Then “-dir” verbal suffix is added at the end of the verb by transforming it to “-dur” due to the vowel harmony. So the sentence should be: “Daha popüleri Türk fast-foodudur”. Birçok kişi dönercide "Döner" ve "Lahmacun" aliyor. No errors, only last word should be “alıyor”. Bir "Döner" yoksa "Lahmacun" pahalı değil ve çok lezzetli. When using “or” in ordered nouns or verbs, we use “veya” or “ya da” in Turkish. So the sentence should be “Döner veya lahmacun pahalı değil ve çok lezzetli(dir)” Ben "Lahmacun" yemeyi tercih ediyorum, çünkü salatalı ve yağlı değil. No errors. I prefer lahmacun too :] But in semantics, “çünkü salatalı ve yağlı değil” sentence may be understood as as if “it is not neither with salad nor fat”. To prevent this disambiguation you can use “…çünkü yağlı değil ve salatalı(dır)”. Dönerci olarak çalişmayı ilginç bir meslek? Here you ask a question. But you may not use question structure just like in English. But the subject is “working as a döner-maker” so it is “dönerci olarak çalışmak”. So it should be “Dönerci olarak çalışmak ilginç bir meslek(tir). ” Bu bilmiyorum. I think, it is “I don’t know this” in English then you need to define “bu” is the definite subject acting on the verb by adding “-i" suffix. Here due to vowel harmony, “-i" suffix transforms to “-u”. So it is “bu+u”. In order to separate two vowels a blending letter is needed to be added. Here the blending letter is “-n”. So it is “bu+n+u”. So it should be “Bunu bilmiyorum”. Galiba öğretmen olarak çalişmayı daha enteresan bir meslek! Again same type is here. The subject is “working as a teacher” which is “öğretmen olarak çalışmak” And you had better use “ilginç” instead of “enteresan” So it should be “Galiba, öğretmen olarak çalışmak daha ilginç bir meslek!” Şehrimde yalnız birkaç dönerci, fakat en çok öğretmen var. There is contradiction here. You’ve used “en çok” superlative form in Turkish, but you’ve used indefinite countable noun counter “many” in English. The translation of “en çok” is “the most” in English. And instead of “yalnız birkaç” you should use “sadece birkaç” here. If your sentence is “There are only a few döner-makers in my city, but many teachers” then it should be “Şehrimde sadece birkaç dönerci, fakat çok öğretmen var”. “Fast-food" Türkçe ne demek? “Fast-food” is a loanword derived from English. In Turkish it is used, written, and pronounced as “fast-food” as how English-speaking people speak. There are responses for it, for example “hızlı yiyecek” simply translated as how it is. And TDK (Turkish Language Association) suggested “ayaküstü yemek” which means “food in haste”. Although these “ayaküstü yemek” or “hızlı yiyecek” are suggested to use, Turkish people don’t like use them. They prefer using “fast-food”. 3 persons have voted this message useful | |
 Fasulye Heptaglot Winner TAC 2012 Moderator Germany fasulyespolyglotblog Joined 5840 days ago 5460 posts - 6006 votes 1 sounds Speaks: German*, DutchC1, EnglishB2, French, Italian, Spanish, Esperanto Studies: Latin, Danish, Norwegian, Turkish Personal Language Map | Message 258 of 868 30 July 2009 at 5:19pm | IP Logged |
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Thanks in advance for the correction, Ertugrul!
I will study the details tomorrow. I seem to have a "bu" - problem, because I am never sure whether to use the nominative or the accusative. I am surprised how complicated it appears to be to construct such simple sentences. I am expressing so simple things and the grammar of those is that complicated! It's not like learning Dutch or Esperanto! What is the semantic difference between "ilginç" and "enteresan", I thought those were synonyms? As far as I have the time, I will write more Turkish essays, but first I will study the correction thoroughly and correct my faults in the original essay. Other people reading the whole correction process here might as well get the impression that Turkish is not really an easy language to learn. But I just work myself through that, no matter how many mistakes I make. Fasulye Edited by Fasulye on 30 July 2009 at 5:25pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| Fasulye Heptaglot Winner TAC 2012 Moderator Germany fasulyespolyglotblog Joined 5840 days ago 5460 posts - 6006 votes 1 sounds Speaks: German*, DutchC1, EnglishB2, French, Italian, Spanish, Esperanto Studies: Latin, Danish, Norwegian, Turkish Personal Language Map | Message 259 of 868 31 July 2009 at 9:49am | IP Logged |
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Friday, 31 July 2009 = Cuma, 31 temmuz 2009
HERE IS THE CORRECTED VERSION OF MY ESSAY: Almanya'da Türk yiyecekleri In Germany Turkish food Şehrimde birçok Türk yiyecekleri alabilirsiniz ve yiyebilirsiniz. In-my-city much Turkish food you-can-buy and you-can-eat. Örneğin, Türk lokantaları var. For-example, Turkish restaurants there-are. Burada pide yiyebilirsiniz ve Türk çayı içebilirsiniz. There pide you-can-eat and Turkish tea you can drink. Daha popüleri Türk fast-foodudur. More poplular Turkish fast-food-is. Birçok kişi dönercide "Döner" ve "Lahmacun" alıyor. Many people at the döner-maker "Döner" ve "Lahmacun" they-buy. Bir "Döner" veya "Lahmacun" pahalı değil ve çok lezzetli(dir). A "Döner" or "Lahmacun" expensive not and very tasty (is). Ben "Lahmacun" yemeyi tercih ediyorum, çünkü yağlı değil ve salatalı(dır). I "Lahmacun" to eat I-prefer, because fatty not and salad-with (is). Dönerci olarak çalişmak ilginç bir meslek? Döner-maker as to work interesting a profession? Bunu bilmiyorum. This I-don't-know. Galiba, öğretmen olarak çalişmak daha ilginç bir meslek! Perhaps teacher as to work more interesting a profession! Şehrimde sadece birkaç dönerci, fakat en çok öğretmen var. In-my-city only a few döner-makers, but many teachers there-are. "Fast-food" Türkçe ne demek? Ertugrul explained me that the English word "fast-food" is used in Turkish as well. When I was a pupil at school (many years ago), I was taught to make thorough rewritings of my school essays including all the corrected errors. I keep doing this as an adult because for me it's the best way to get the faulty structures out of my Turkish language. Fasulye Edited by Fasulye on 01 August 2009 at 8:41am 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| Ertugrul Diglot Groupie Turkey Joined 5655 days ago 63 posts - 124 votes Speaks: Turkish*, English Studies: Arabic (Written) | Message 260 of 868 31 July 2009 at 9:58am | IP Logged |
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Fasulye, "ilginç" and "enteresan" are synonyms in one aspect but:
İlginç means interesting, absorbing, amazing, curious, exciting, exotic, readable, taking etc. Enteresan only means interesting. Beside all from above, I prefer and suggest using pure-Turkish words instead of loanwords from English or Latin-based languages. If a concept or an object can be expressed with Turkish words then I don't use foreign loanwords. --- Actually "bu/bunu" problem is not a very complicated one. Turkish has unique and generalized rules to give you clues about which case you should use. Let's fix this: “Bu” means “this”. It has two functions in a sentence: First is being an adjective attributing a noun. Second is a pronoun. And it can be in two forms: First is being in subject form. Second is being in object form. The subject is what or who the sentence is speaking about. It is the doer of the verb. The object denotes somebody or something involved in the subject's "performance" of the verb. ---------“Bu” in subject form--------- In this form, “bu” is in nominative case. Check out the examples: Ex1: Bu kitap çok pahalı(dır). – This book is very expensive. Ex2: Bu çok pahalı(dır) – This is very expensive. In Ex1, “bu kitap” is the subject. “-dir” is the complementary verb corresponding for “to be”. If it is not clear, you can ask to predicate or verb this question: What/Who is very expensive? The answer is the subject: “this book”. “Bu kitap” is the thing that is being very expensive. It consists of two words. First one is “bu” that is the adjective and latter one is “kitap” that is the noun. So we mention about “this book” (bu kitap) not an ordinary book, we’ve defined “the book”. In this case, if “bu + NOUN” is the subject of a sentence, it is used as nominative case. In Ex2, let’s ask to the predicate again: What/Who is very expensive? The answer is the subject: “this”. “Bu” is the thing that is being very expensive. It consists of only one word. That is “bu” which is a pronoun. We don’t use a noun following a pronoun. (Recall the “hangisi and ikisi” post). ---------”Bu” in object form--------- Ex3: Mary bu kitabı satın aldı. – Mary bought this book. Ex4: Mary bunu satın aldı. – Mary bought this (one). In Ex3, the structure is different: Subject + Object + Verb. If we’ve found the verb or predicate, let’s ask to it: What/Who bought? The answer is the subject: “Mary”. And let’s ask what “Mary” bought: What did Mary buy? The answer is the object: “this book”. Since the object is the direct object, in Turkish we express it in accusative case. To make a noun accusative, we simply add a “-i" suffix at the end of the noun. When in accusative case nouns became defined in Turkish (as if taking a “the” article in English). Since "bu kitap" is the direct object we add "-i" accusative suffix only to the noun, not to "bu": So it is “bu kitap+i” You must already know that why it transforms to “bu kitabı” due to consonant softening and vowel harmony. In Ex4, noun (“kitap”) is not used again, so it is a pronoun. Let’s ask again: What/Who bought? The answer is the subject: “Mary”. What did Mary buy? The answer is the object: “this (one)”. Again it is a pronoun and it is the thing that is bought by Mary. So it is a direct object. And we must use the direct object in accusative case in Turkish, again. So we add “-i" accusative case suffix at the end of it: “bu+i". Firstly, “bu” is a word which ends with a vowel. When it takes a suffix which starts with a vowel, there is needed to use a blending letter: “-n” here. So it becomes: “bu+n+i" And the accusative suffix is still not proper in terms of vowel harmony. The correct one for this example is “-u” due to vowel harmony. So it becomes: “bu+n+u”. Edit: Some misspellings and syntax errors are corrected. Edited by Ertugrul on 31 July 2009 at 10:20am 2 persons have voted this message useful | |
| Fasulye Heptaglot Winner TAC 2012 Moderator Germany fasulyespolyglotblog Joined 5840 days ago 5460 posts - 6006 votes 1 sounds Speaks: German*, DutchC1, EnglishB2, French, Italian, Spanish, Esperanto Studies: Latin, Danish, Norwegian, Turkish Personal Language Map | Message 261 of 868 31 July 2009 at 10:09am | IP Logged |
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That's I useful, I will study the "bu" - lesson soon. First I will be rewriting an older Turkish essay of mine with hyperliterals. So, let's do that first!
Fasulye PS: It's like an intensive online course here! All this language learning is also interesting for my Turkish studypartner Johannes and for other fellow students of Turkish in this forum. Edited by Fasulye on 31 July 2009 at 10:11am 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| Fasulye Heptaglot Winner TAC 2012 Moderator Germany fasulyespolyglotblog Joined 5840 days ago 5460 posts - 6006 votes 1 sounds Speaks: German*, DutchC1, EnglishB2, French, Italian, Spanish, Esperanto Studies: Latin, Danish, Norwegian, Turkish Personal Language Map | Message 262 of 868 31 July 2009 at 10:33am | IP Logged |
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Friday, 31 July 2009 = Cuma, 31 temmuz 2009
CORRECTED VERSION OF MY ESSAY WITH HYPERLITERALS Hava Krefeld'de nasıl? Weather in-Krefeld how? Bugün hava güneşli ve çok sıkıntılı. Today weather sunny and very oppresive. Aşağı yukarı otuz derece var. About 30 degrees there-is. Hava Türkiye'de nasıl? Weather in-Turkey how? Denizde yüzmek istiyorum, ama burada deniz yok, maalesef. In-the-sea to swim I-want-to, but here sea there-is-not, unfortunately. Onun yerine evde kalıyorum ve vantilatör kullanıyorum. Instead of at home I-am-staying and fan I-am-using. In het Nederlands zeg ik altijd: "Het is weer ventilator weer!" In Dutch say I always: "It is again fan weather!" Bana göre (EDIT) bu sıkıntılı hava çok kötü, In my opinion this oppressive weather very bad, çünkü vantilatörsüz kütüphanede dil öğrenmek veya bilimsel (EDIT) dergi (EDIT) okumak zor. because without-fan in-the-library learning languages or scientific magazine reading difficult. Ama vantilatörlü evde ögrenmek mümkün. But with-fan at home learning possible. This essay is already a bit older, but I wanted to add the hyperliterals. I has already been corrected by Ertugrul. Fasulye Edited by Fasulye on 31 July 2009 at 11:10am 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| Fasulye Heptaglot Winner TAC 2012 Moderator Germany fasulyespolyglotblog Joined 5840 days ago 5460 posts - 6006 votes 1 sounds Speaks: German*, DutchC1, EnglishB2, French, Italian, Spanish, Esperanto Studies: Latin, Danish, Norwegian, Turkish Personal Language Map | Message 263 of 868 31 July 2009 at 10:53am | IP Logged |
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TURKISH GRAMMAR: SUMMARIZING THE "BU" = THIS - TOPIC
Of course I know the gramatical jargon (but not in Turkish)! What I hadn't understood with "bu" was the difference between "bu" as a pronoun and "bu" as an adjective. So both are treated differently, "bu" as a pronoun has to de declined (put into cases) and "bu" as an adjective remains unchanged. That's the main difference. Dealing with cases in general is not that difficult for me because the German language has four cases. For example: Nominative: das Haus = ev Genitive: des Hauses = evin Dative: dem Haus = eve Accusative: das Haus = evi no Ablative no Locative The last two Turkish cases are built with prepositions in German. You see that the German language uses three articles "der" = male, "die" = female and "das" = neuter. Fasulye Edited by Fasulye on 31 July 2009 at 11:13am 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| Johannes Diglot Groupie Germany adfc-nrw.de/ Joined 5636 days ago 76 posts - 79 votes Speaks: German*, Latin Studies: Turkish | Message 264 of 868 31 July 2009 at 4:39pm | IP Logged |
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Merhaba Fasulye,
bu akşam rasathaneye geleceğim. Sen de gel! Selamlarla. Johannes 1 person has voted this message useful |
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