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Iversen’s Multiconfused Log (see p.1!) | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Language Learning Log |  | |
 Fasulye Heptaglot Winner TAC 2012 Moderator Germany fasulyespolyglotblog Joined 5848 days ago 5460 posts - 6006 votes  1 sounds Speaks: German*, DutchC1, EnglishB2, French, Italian, Spanish, Esperanto Studies: Latin, Danish, Norwegian, Turkish Personal Language Map | Message 2353 of 3959 30 March 2011 at 2:35pm | IP Logged | ||
DE: Im Krefelder Zoo hat man auch Affen malen lassen. Solche von Affen gemalten Bilder sind bei Kunden sehr begehrt und erzielen gute Preise. Für die Tiere ist es eine gute Beschäftigung, denn gerade Menschenaffen leiden im Zoo oft unter Langeweile. Fasulye Edited by Fasulye on 30 March 2011 at 2:36pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
 Iversen Super Polyglot Moderator Denmark berejst.dk Joined 6704 days ago 9078 posts - 16473 votes Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian Personal Language Map | Message 2354 of 3959 30 March 2011 at 11:42pm | IP Logged | ||
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DU: Ik citeer hieronder een paar artikelen uit Gyldendal Deens-Nederlands woordenboek om de mate van morfologische en artikulatorische gegevens daarin te illustreren:
rødgrød ['röð,gröð] (-en): bessengelei [van rode vruchten] mødereferat ['mø:ðərзfə,rα:̉d] (-et, -er): notulen pl.,, vergaderverslag o. rådne ['r٨ðnə] (ede, -et): rotten, verrotten; □ ~ op wegkwijnen, wegrotten åndløs ['٨n,lø:'s] (-t, -e): geestelos 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Iversen Super Polyglot Moderator Denmark berejst.dk Joined 6704 days ago 9078 posts - 16473 votes Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian Personal Language Map | Message 2355 of 3959 31 March 2011 at 12:05am | IP Logged | ||
For Kuikentje: some of the better articles about painting elephants: Desmond Morris in Dailymail elephant painting an elephant painting elephants in Thailand an elephant that has been taught ONE kind of picture TheScientist article with more links .. so yes, elephants can paint. Edited by Iversen on 14 September 2011 at 12:47am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Fasulye Heptaglot Winner TAC 2012 Moderator Germany fasulyespolyglotblog Joined 5848 days ago 5460 posts - 6006 votes 1 sounds Speaks: German*, DutchC1, EnglishB2, French, Italian, Spanish, Esperanto Studies: Latin, Danish, Norwegian, Turkish Personal Language Map | Message 2356 of 3959 31 March 2011 at 6:24am | IP Logged | ||
Uitstekend!!! Dit woordenboek heeft IPA en geeft het woordgeslacht aan en zowel de tijdsvormen van de verleden tijd - dus dat is alles wat ik nodig heb om goed Deens te leren. Ondertussen heb ik dat woordenboek besteld. Het valt wel mee met de prijs, het is zo duur als Gyldendal-Prisma in Nederland. Gelukkig niet duurder. Het Langenscheidt Deens woordenboek heeft voor mij te kleine schrift, daardoor is het gebruik voor mij moeizaam. Ik zeg niet dat het van slechte kwaliteit is. Als ik eindelijk voor het Deens een bruikbaar woordenboek heb, dan kan ik ook maar eens wat over astronomie in het Deens lezen. Want dan moet ik toch wat meer woorden opzoeken, daar is het woordenboek van Gyldendal zeker geschikt voor. Fasulye Edited by Fasulye on 31 March 2011 at 9:22pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Iversen Super Polyglot Moderator Denmark berejst.dk Joined 6704 days ago 9078 posts - 16473 votes Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian Personal Language Map | Message 2357 of 3959 01 April 2011 at 1:06am | IP Logged | ||
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IT: Stasera ho fatto una cassetta per la mia 'seconda' collezione con musica barocca dimenticata della mia 'prima' collezione,e particolarmente concerti del prete rosso Antonio Vivaldi, che era probabilmente il primo a scrivere concerti in tre movimenti per strumenti di vento. Esistava già concerti per il violino, ma non appena concerti in tre movimenti per fagotti, oboi, trombe o clarinetti come quelli di Vivaldi. Ha scritto anche concerti per il violino e la viola d'amore, uno strumento con corde armonice sotto le chorde ordinarie, e concerti grossi. Scrisse tutti questi concerti per le fanciulle di una strana istituzione chiamata "Ospedale della Pietà", ed credo fosse questa il unico luogo nel mondo dove si potessi allora vedere ed ascoltare concerti per oboi, fagotti, trombe, violoncelli e violini con giovani ragazze innocenti come solisti - qualcosa come un concerto con il signore Rieu senza Rieu. Ho anche fatto uno copia di un concerto per oboe e fagotto del compositore ceco Jan Dismas Zelenka, ma non posso ancora dare un commentario nella lingua guista.
CAT: A més, vaig navegar per l'internet. I allà em he trobat un lloc web català mitjançant un avís del "Esperanto-Muzeo" " de Subirats. L'ha fet el farmacèutic barceloní Lluís Hernández en l'any 1996, peró s'ah tancat já en 2002 desprez la mort delfundador. Ara ha reobert, i es pot veure'l els dissabtes i diumenges, segons la jornada "el Punt". RU: Я также смешал некоторые языки в другом отношении, а именно, читая в русской Википедии статья на Тонга и другой на Австронезийских языках, покрытия Малагасийский, Багасы Индонезия / Малайзия и Тагальский. I have spent some time this evening makling a cassette tape with baroque music, including five concerts by the 'red priest' Antonio Vivaldi, who wrote hundreds of concertos for the young girls at the "Ospedale della Pietà" where he was employed. Previous composers had written concertos for the violin, but Vivaldi also wrote concertos for oboes, bassoons, clarinets (which were much more strident in his time) and other instruments. I also have copied a concerto for oboe and bassoon by the Szech composer Zelenka - but I can't say anything about this interesting composer in the relevant language. "Wovon man nicht reden kann, darüber muss man zweigen" (Zitat Wittgenstein) Apart from that I have surfed on the internet, where I happened to see an article in Catalan about an Esperanto Museum in a town called Subirats, and I have read, studied and copied an article about Austronesian languages in the Russian Wikipedia. This group comprises hundreds of languages, including Malagassy, Bahasa I & M and Filipino/Tagalog. AND a lot of tribal languages on the island of New Guinea. Edited by Iversen on 04 April 2011 at 12:46am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Fasulye Heptaglot Winner TAC 2012 Moderator Germany fasulyespolyglotblog Joined 5848 days ago 5460 posts - 6006 votes 1 sounds Speaks: German*, DutchC1, EnglishB2, French, Italian, Spanish, Esperanto Studies: Latin, Danish, Norwegian, Turkish Personal Language Map | Message 2358 of 3959 01 April 2011 at 2:01pm | IP Logged | ||
This is almost unbeleivable that elephants can paint and that some of them can paint so well. Thanks for sharing such infos with the readers of your log, Iversen, I am amazed! Fasulye 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Iversen Super Polyglot Moderator Denmark berejst.dk Joined 6704 days ago 9078 posts - 16473 votes Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian Personal Language Map | Message 2359 of 3959 03 April 2011 at 9:15pm | IP Logged | ||
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The world is full of amazing facts. One of them is the Polish past tense, and right now I'm writing something about it while listening to a TV program about the oldest Steinway piano. A Belgian man is building a copy of it, so even though the program mostly is in English there are now and then a couple of sentences in Dutch (or Flemish) ... or even in French. And there are Danish subtitles, but I don't have time to read them because I'm looking at my computer screen most of the time. Edited by Iversen on 03 April 2011 at 9:23pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Iversen Super Polyglot Moderator Denmark berejst.dk Joined 6704 days ago 9078 posts - 16473 votes Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian Personal Language Map | Message 2360 of 3959 03 April 2011 at 10:15pm | IP Logged | ||
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I have spent some time yesterday looking at television and internet videos and podcasts in a number of languages, and I could have written about that yesterday - but I didn't. Today I have had a totally different program: I have spent much of the day on music - as I have written earlier I'm compiling some new cassettes with forgotten music from my first collection of music cassettes (pre-1990), and today I went through a lot of music from the baroque and early classical period. Most of those pieces are fairly short, so it took a lot of time.
But when I had finished that project I started my language studies, and so far I have studied the verbal morphology of Polish - with references to other Slavic languages. Prepare for a slightly technical presentation... According to my Pons, Polish verbs have a present stem and a "Präteritalstamm/Infinitivstamm". This last name is of course in German, where the past tense is called Präterium, and I don't know what the prevalent name for this stem is in English - so I'll just call it the infinitve stem. There is one special justification for this, namely that the present stem generally seems to be either identical to the infinitive stem or it is a shortened version: the examples in the book (p. 23) include the following verbs: To bite. present: gryzę - past tense gryzłem - infinitive gryźć To write. present piszę - past tense pisałem - infinitive pisać To buy: present kupuję - past tense kupowałem - infinitive kupować So the present stem is the special case (only used for the present/(perfective) future and a number of infinite verbal forms), and the other one is the one used for the rest. I noticed a serious problem with my Pons dictionary when I wanted to find the infinitive of gryźć: the headword "beißen" only pointed me in the direction of "ugryźć", which probably is the perfective partner of the verb "ugryźć". This means that I have to find a Polish dictionary that doesn't hide the imperfective verbs before I start any serious study of this language ... but the Polish-german half of the dictionary is OK, it has both "gryźć" and "ugryźć" as headwords. In an earlier post I have mentioned that the grammar only accepts the tense name "present" for imperfective verbs - which is logical, given that the action hinted at by a perfective verb either has happened or may happen in the future. But Pons then exemplies the "vollendetes Futur" ('finished future') with the form "napiszę" (1.p.sing.), which is nonsense - this is a form of the corresponding perfective verb and it simply doesn't belong in a table for the imperfective verb "pis-a-ć. The reality is that there is one morphological tense, which however has different uses for imperfective and perfective verbs. Which removes one complication from the verbal table at p.20 in the book. In the same table there are some 'unfinished futures', which are build with forms of the verb "być" (to be) plus either a participle or an infinitive - I'll come back to those. There is a "Konjunctiv" (subjunctive) containing the particle "-by-", but first and foremost the past tense. before we look at the Polish form I would like to mention the Russian system, which is delightfully simple: the forms are to write: infinitive писать - past tense: masculine писал, feminine писала, neutral писало and plural писали. So there is no reference to 1., 2. and 3. person here, but instead masculine, feminine and neutral forms and one common form in the plural. These endings are wellknown from the adjectives, and the reason is that the socalled past tense actually is an old participle that lost its auxiliary verb. Auxiliary verb? OK , let's have a look at Bulgarian where the auxiliary verb has been preserved. Actually the Bulgarian verbal morphology is fairly exotic, given that it also has forms built on an 'aorist' stem (using Greek terminology) and that it has all but dispensed with the infinitive, but we only need to consider the forms belonging to one of the past tense, nemlig 'the one with an л'. My source is the "Petite Grammaire du Bulgare" of Jack Feuillet, so it is called the 'parfait', and it is composed of the 'participe parfait' and the regular forms of the present of the auxiliary verb corresponding to 'to be': 1-2-3. p. singular: чел(а) съм, чел(а) си, чел(а) е 1-2-3. p. plural: чели сме, чели сте, чели са The (а) or и indicates that the participle is declined according the gender and number like adjectives. Which of course rings a bell. Now let's see the Polish system (♂: masculine, ♀: feminine, ☼: neutral, A: animated, IA inanimated, in Pons referred to as "Personalform" resp. "Sachform"): singular: 1. p. ♂: pisa-ł-e-m 1. p. ♀: pisa-ł-a-m 2. p. ♂: pisa-ł-e-ś 2. p. ♀: pisa-ł-a-ś 3. p. ♂: pisa-ł 3. p. ♀: pisa-ł-a 3. p. ☼: pisa-ł-o plural: 1. p. A: pisa-l-i-śmy 1. p. IA: pisa-ł-y-śmy 2. p. A: pisa-l-i-ście 2. p. IA: pisa-ł-y-ście 3. p. A: pisa-l-i 3. p. IA: pisa-ł-y You wouldn't expect the inanimated forms in the 1. and 2. person of the plural to be in high demand , given the low number of speaking trees, so there must be some aspect of the Polish language (or country) I don't know yet - but otherwise the pattern is clear: masculine/feminine/neutral in singular and animated/inanimated in the plural. And as you can se, the 3. person Polish forms are similar to those Russian use across the 1., 2. and 3. person. The distinction between animate and inanimate forms reminds me of the Russian substantives, but let's just take it for granted now without further discussion. But where did the personal endings in the 1. and 2. person come from? The forms of the subjunctive can probably shed some light on that question: singular: 1. p. ♂: pisa-ł-by-m 1. p. ♀: pisa-ł-a-by-m 2. p. ♂: pisa-ł-by-ś 2. p. ♀: pisa-ł-a-by-ś 3. p. ♂: pisa-ł-by 3. p. ♀: pisa-ł-a-by 3. p. ☼: pisa-ł-o-by plural: 1. p. A: pisa-l-i-by-śmy 1. p. IA: pisa-ł-y-by-śmy 2. p. A: pisa-l-i-by-ście 2. p. IA: pisa-ł-y-by-ście 3. p. A: pisa-l-i-by 3. p. IA: pisa-ł-y-by The "-by-" that is intrapolated between the characteristic "ł" or "l" of the participle and the personal ending is a Polish parallel to Russian "бы", except that the Russian can't be integrated into the verb as in Polish. On the other hand the Polish "by" can be used as an isolated word, and in that case it tends to carry the persona endings with it. Pons gives these examples on p. 34: " Ich würde gern etwas Gutes essen" (I would like to eat something good): Chętnie zjadłabym coś dobrego --> gern eat-subj-1.p.sing something of-good Chętnie bym zjadła coś dobrego --> gern subj-1.p.sing eat something of-good I don't know whether "by" slid into the participial form before or after the personal endings, but the processes show a tendency in Polish which Russian didn't share. Finally the tables at p. 20 contain two unfinished futures (of imperfective verbs) -and btw. I think there is a spelling error in the 2. person singular in the feminine column, where the form is given as " będziesz pisał" - it should certainly be " będziesz pisała". There are two constructions, one with a participle and and with an infinitive. The forms of the 1. person singular are "będę pisał" (participle) resp. "będę pisać" (infinitive) and the forms of the auxiliary verb are the normal ones in the present tense (singular: będę, będziesz, będzie / plural: będziemy, bęedziecie, będą) , but the interesting thing is that the particple ONLY has the simple forms of the 3. person (♂♀☼ singular: ▪ , a, o / A, IA plural: i / y ) - the references are of course to the verb "pisać" so I can't guarantee that these vowels are the same for all verbs, but the principle is obvious - no personal endings. And the reason is of course that the personal endings already are in use in the auxiliary verb. There are a number of participles, an imperative and the infinitive which I already have mentioned, but this must be enough for one message. PS: after writing the post above I have surfed on the internet, and I happened to find Doviende's blog, and lo and behold - he has comments from March 2011 about both the role of grammar, about using parallel texts and about tackling a supposedly difficult language as - three guesses - Polish! PS: a chance remark in Michael K's Esperanto log brought me on the trail of Mithridates (also a member here), and here I found a reference to the section of Ted.com where the translations are located. It is too late to listen to long lectures now, but I tried to check Catalan, and alone for this language there are 35 lectures with Catalan subtitles about a number of subjects. Definitely something I will check out later. Edited by Iversen on 04 April 2011 at 11:27am 1 person has voted this message useful |
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