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Iversen’s Multiconfused Log (see p.1!) | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Language Learning Log |  | |
| tarvos Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member China likeapolyglot.wordpr Joined 4708 days ago 5310 posts - 9399 votes  Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish | Message 3889 of 3959 05 June 2015 at 10:47am | IP Logged |
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Deoarece, poate să fie că Google preferă să nu recunoască acest fel de propoziții. Dar
numai e o sugestie... 1 person has voted this message useful | |
 Iversen Super Polyglot Moderator Denmark berejst.dk Joined 6704 days ago 9078 posts - 16473 votes Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian Personal Language Map | Message 3890 of 3959 08 June 2015 at 7:54am | IP Logged |
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If my proposal for the New York conference is accepted I'm going to discuss different error types in Google Translate. And it may be that it hasn't registered the special rule concerning "a putea" and therefore goes awry if it finds a sentence that includes it, but in this case it should be easy for it to accept that for once Romanian behaves like English. In general terms Google Translate has two problem: it can't apply common sense to its information aboutt he world, and it refuses think in syntactic terms.
One example: "pe Youtube puteți auzi un reconstrucție similară" (on the preceding page)" gets translated as "YouTube can hear a similar reconstruction". Why? Because it hasn't got a mechanism that recognize "pe" as a preposition or "puteți" as the 2. person plural, and then it just relies on the word order, drop the "pe", disregard the form of the verb and treats "Youtube" as the subject of the sentence. As I have mentioned I make lots of bilingual texts using Google and it is not rare to see examples where Google is unaware of some important word or construction, and then it can make horrible things. But to fair, I can do that too... Edited by Iversen on 08 June 2015 at 8:09am 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| Iversen Super Polyglot Moderator Denmark berejst.dk Joined 6704 days ago 9078 posts - 16473 votes Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian Personal Language Map | Message 3891 of 3959 08 June 2015 at 10:44am | IP Logged |
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Last Friday my mother and my sister visited my town and me and the recently reopened Moesgaard museum South of that town. Right now there is a splendid exhibition with some of the famous clay statues from the tomb of the 'first' Chinese emperor, Shi-Huang di, and they where fairly content with that. Afterwards we went into the underbelly of the museum, where the Danish archeology is illustrated - and they didn't NOT like it: too dark, too noisy and too claustrophobic. Unfortunately this is representative of the way modern museums are made, which is inspired more by video games than by neat oldfashioned exposition principles. I actually like to scurry around in labyrinthic museums (apart from the noise), but I understand their standpoint.
After that we drove directly to my mother's house, and therefore I only brought along the bilingual texts I already had in my bag - nothing new. In Greek I had a text about the anmazing Sumerians (mentioned earlier in this thread), and in Catalan I had some monolingual texts about the history of planet Earth - but at a fairly modest detail level. It didn't matter much, though, because I rarely have lots of time for study during those family visits. I often wonder how anybody can live with other people in their abode and still get some serious studying done. GR: Δικό μου τελευταίο μήνυμα ελληνικό ήταν γεμάτο λάθη. Ελπίζω οτι αυτό είναι λιγάκι πιο σωστό, αλλά η ελληνική δεν είναι μια γλώσσα την οποία χρησιμοποιώ συχνά. Έχω επισκεφθεί τη μητέρα μου αυτό το προηγούμενο Σαββατοκύριακο αλλά είχα μόνο παλιά δίγλωσσα κείμενα στις αποσκευές μου. Έτσι στα ελληνικά ξανα-μελέτησα το κείμενο σχετικά τους Σουμέριους από την Βικιπαίδεια, στον οποίο ανέφερα νωρίτερα σε αυτό το νήμα. Αλλά αυτή τη φορά σχεδόν δε χρειάζομαι να εξετάσω την μετάφραση. Edited by Iversen on 08 June 2015 at 11:46am 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| Iversen Super Polyglot Moderator Denmark berejst.dk Joined 6704 days ago 9078 posts - 16473 votes Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian Personal Language Map | Message 3892 of 3959 09 June 2015 at 4:15pm | IP Logged |
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In the bus back home from work I got through most of the latest magazine in Esperanto from UEA (I have to do something about my rusty Esperanto before Lille), but it was not very enticing reading compared to the things I got through later in the day. I spent last evening in my armchair, mostly working on 'old' texts in a series of languages, and the main courses were:
1) Two lessons in my old Polish textbook from the Communist period. The texts are mostly rather silly. They describe the activities of a number of people plus a dog and some kids, but once in a while there is a glimpse of Polish daily life in bygone days. For instance two couples wanted to hire kayaks and they are asked to present their swimming certificates. Did people really get such certificates, did they really need to show them to hire a canoe or kayak ... and is it still like that in Poland? 2) Several lessons in my Greek Teach Yourself from the good old 'blue' days. Well, I know practically all the words, but it isn't a bad idea to get a repetition of the morphology of some of them. There isn't any plot - just isolated sentences in Greek. 3) A couple of pages in my Russian history books with printed accents, which I used a couple of years ago but found to be too difficult back then. OK, I still have to look words up, and in a number of cases the words aren't even in my dictionary so they can't be very common, but by and large I can get through the text. I'm at the point where Ivan IV Groznyj is about to launch his bloody опричнина campaign, where he faced a rebellion, abdicated ... and then some naive boyars from Moscow without any psychological sense asked him to return and to boot gave him their permission to punish traitors and everybody else at will - which he did. 4) And finally I added a bit of Neanderthal lore in Romanian. According to a study performed by scientists from Harvard it seems that they grew up faster and lived shorter than we do. The old man described by Abbé Breuil was a rare exception, but ironically his worn and bent body was taken as the prototype of the whole species until fairly recently, and therefore people still think that they were a bunch of club wielding brutes. OK, they weren't very inventive and artsy, but they had strong and able bodies. On my night chair (not a table) I have three small Assimils, but last night I didn't use them. Edited by Iversen on 09 June 2015 at 4:17pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| tarvos Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member China likeapolyglot.wordpr Joined 4708 days ago 5310 posts - 9399 votes Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish | Message 3893 of 3959 09 June 2015 at 4:32pm | IP Logged |
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Я не знаю, как все положено в Польше, а у нас всем детям научат плавание уже когда им
лет 5-6. Они получает дипломы по плаванию, и первые две дипломы являются общими у всех. Много продолжают курсы, и получают другие дипломы. Это у нас целая индустрия. Вопрос - "малыш, у тебя есть А и Б уже?" - очень распространенный. Edited by tarvos on 09 June 2015 at 4:33pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| Iversen Super Polyglot Moderator Denmark berejst.dk Joined 6704 days ago 9078 posts - 16473 votes Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian Personal Language Map | Message 3894 of 3959 09 June 2015 at 5:50pm | IP Logged |
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RU: Я никогда не нанял каноэ или каяк, но я был бы очень удивлен, если бы я должен был показать сертификат плавания, чтобы иметь возможность нанять такую вещь. Существует сертификат для дайверов и сертификат для лодки капитанов, но помимо этого вы имеете право нанять лодки и утопить.
1 person has voted this message useful | |
| Iversen Super Polyglot Moderator Denmark berejst.dk Joined 6704 days ago 9078 posts - 16473 votes Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian Personal Language Map | Message 3895 of 3959 11 June 2015 at 1:59pm | IP Logged |
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Ok, I have to train my Esperanto so here goes....
EO: Mi jam informis vin ke dum la pasinta semajno miaj patrino kaj fratrino min vizitis, kaj ni tute vizitis recentnovmalfermitan muzeon Moesgård en la arbaroj sude de la mia urbo Århus (kun 'Å' - "Aarhus" estas nenecesa koncesio al publikecaj homoj kaj perfiduloj). La muzeo nomiĝis laŭ domego ('manor house') Moesgård, kie loĝiĝas la arkeologiaj kaj etnografiaj institutoj de la universitato de Århus. En la aliaj konstradoj de la domego loĝiĝas ekde 1970 la prehistorika muzeo, ekde 1997 nomita "Moesgård museum". La malnova muzeo havis bonan kaj tre edukantan ekspozicion sur la ŝtonepoko, kie oni vere vidis la kronologian ordon de la subepokoj. La ekspozicio sur la bronzepoko loĝiĝis en unu malgranda ĉambron, preskaŭ koridoro. La ferepoka ekspozicio havis pli spaco kaj du grandajn vidindaĵojn: la homo de Grauballo (la plej bone konservitan torfeja korpo en la mondo) kaj kaj la Illerup trovado, konsistanta el centoj da detruitaj armiloj de venkitaj malamikoj kaj donitis al la dioj de la hejmaj venkintoj. De la tarda ferepoko kaj vikinga epoko el museo havis ĉambron plena de runoŝtone (kun tradukadoj) kaj malgrandan ekspozicion sur la vikingoj. Sur la etnografio nur plasta kopio de la maya sunŝtono kaj unu ĉambron kun aliaj objektoj – lastatempe el Gronlando, antaŭe ankaŭ el Nuristano en Azio. La muzeo fakte ne estis malbona, sed por iuj ŝajnis tro modesta kaj tradicia. Kaj tiom leviĝis la ideo de nova muzeo de internacia klaso. Oni sukcesis trovi 345 DKK (proksimume 50 milionoj euroj), fermis la malnova muzeo kaj komencis desegni kaj konstrui grandan novan muzeon sur (kaj en) najbara dekliva herbejo. Kiel arkitekto oni elektis faman danan arkitekto Henning Larsen. La nova muzeo reprezentas dekliva surfaco kiu elstaras el la paŝtejo kaj estas kovrita el herbo sur la tegmento. En la supreterena parto estas etnografiaj ekspoziciaĵoj, en la teretaĝo vendejo de biletoj, butiko, kafeterio kaj pasemaj ekspozicioj, kaj subtere estas du etaĝoj por la dana historio - kvankam ankoraŭ ne ekspoziciaĵoj sur la Ŝtonepoko. Meze de la domo estas granda ŝtuparo, popolita de antaŭhistoriaj homínidos, ekde la Australopitekino Lucy al unu 9000-jare malnova damo de Fionio - Stephen Hawkingo sidas ĉe la supro de la ŝtuparo (mi vere esperas ke la muzeogento lin elpetis antaŭe de fari la kopion!) La unua provizora ekspozicio estas granda ekspozicio de tombostatuoj de Shi Huang Di, la unua imperiestro de Ĉinio – kaj tio certe ne estas iu kiu oni vidas ĉiutage en eŭropaj muzeoj! Oni vidas pafarkistoj kaj aliaj specoj de soldatoj, sed ankaŭ muzikistoj, unu oficiro kaj du grupoj de vagonoj, inkludante enterigoprocesio, kie la veturilon kun la korpo aspektas kiel inversigis testudo. Sed la vagono kun la korpo de la imperiestro certe estis MULTE pli granda. Bezonis certe testudegon tiel grandan kiel urbeto por lia kadavro. La ekspozicio ne mencias la kialon de la morto de la imperiestro, sed ĝi certe estis verŝajne lia ingesto de drogoj kun hidrargo kaj aliaj malvirtoj kiuj lin mortigis. Kaj lia popolo devas ellogis suspirojn de reliefo ĉe la anonco. Antaŭ la publigito de la anonco, la ruzaj korteganoj sendis por lia filo kaj heredanto ordonon kun la imperiestra stampon de memmortigado, kaj li kompreneble obeis! Neniu postvivis defii la terura imperiestron! Kaj tiel finis la dinastio, sed ne la memoro de la unua imperiestro de Ĉinio. Mia fratino kaj patrino ŝatis tiun spektaklon, sed poste ni prenis la lifton malsupren al la submondo, kaj tie ĉio iris malbone! La historiaj kolektoj estas malhelaj, bruegaj kaj klaustrofobikaj - pli inspiritaj de videoludoj ol de la klasikaj muzeointernoj. Mi ne tre ŝatas la bruon, sed mi iras plezure tra subteraj labirintoj kun multaj rigardindojn kaj vidaj efektoj - almenaŭ tiom longe ke mi ne renkontigas abomenindajn monstrojn míticajn armitajn per laseraj kanonoj. Sed nek mian patrinon aŭ mia fratino povis elteni la kondiĉojn malsupren, do ili kuris al la kafejo dum mi vagantis tra la historiaj submondoj kaj la surtera etnografio. Edited by Iversen on 11 June 2015 at 4:09pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| Iversen Super Polyglot Moderator Denmark berejst.dk Joined 6704 days ago 9078 posts - 16473 votes Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian Personal Language Map | Message 3896 of 3959 13 June 2015 at 10:11pm | IP Logged |
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In this moment I'm watching a string of programs about birds from BBC Earth with David Attenborough - in English, of course, but with a few informations which may be relevant also for language aficionados. For instance I didn't know that birds have their vocal apparatus far down the throat, close to a bifurcation of the airways, and therefore it can produce two different tonws simultaneously. Try to imitate that, ye human reader! And a cowbird - which can produce 5o different notes - takes two yars to learn to really master this arsenal of sounds. So it doesn't matter if I take two years to learn some language. And we met the fabelous lyrebird from Australia, which composes its song from everything it hears around it - and nowadays that is not just other bird songs, but also the click of a camera (with and without motor) and the sounds of an elctric saw.
But even the iconic Attenborough use the typial English pronunciations of foreign words. For instance he mentioned the Vogelkop bowerbird (Amblyornis inornata) from Western New Guinea and pronounced it as /wogglekop/. Actually it is named after the Vogelkop peninsula (Indonesian: Kepala Burung), which in its turn is named after the Dutch word Vogelkop (roughly /fohglkop/) - meaning bird's head. I don't blame Attenborough for speaking English according to the rules of English, but it shocks me every time I hear those habitual mispronunciations. And it is no consolation that similar things occur in other languages - like in the French program from Costa Rica I watched earlier today. A few days ago I discussed the voice of the Neanderthals. Far back in my study days I read an article in a magazine 'Language', where the conclusion was that they had a narrower throat and consequently would have a voice like that of a sapient baby and a limited gamut of vocal sounds. So the conclusion was basically that they couldn't have a fully developed language In a way the new teams of researchers have reached the same factual conclusions, but now they assume that Neanderthals did speak, though maybe in a more strident way than us. Another Neanderthaler article suggested that the Neanderthals had died out long before the advent of modern humans, and that it was a volcanic eruption that finally did away with them. But an article by Benjamin Black in Journal of Geology evaluates the effect of the eruption in question - most likely one at the Campi Flegrei in the Napoli area in Italy - and reaches the conclusion that the local effects would have been devastating, but on a European scale it had less effect than the climatic changes which the Neanderthals had survived up to that moment. So the most likely scenario is still that the Neanderthals lost out in the competition with our ancestors. Their last refuge on this planet seems to have been Gibraltar. Edited by Iversen on 13 June 2015 at 10:19pm 1 person has voted this message useful |
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