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Iversen
Super Polyglot
Moderator
Denmark
berejst.dk
Joined 6704 days ago
9078 posts - 16473 votes 
Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan
Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian
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| Message 657 of 3959 12 April 2009 at 9:27pm | IP Logged |
Fasulye wrote:
My fun experiment for Iversen:
I will use the same three sentences, which I have already presented in my own TAC log and let Google translate them into Iversen's languages:
My original English sentences:
Fatma must go to the train station.
Ayse needs a kilo of apples and pears.
I must do some shopping.
...
ISL, AFR, LAT and ESP: not offered by Google
....
The translations into my Romance languages FR, SP and IT are perfect!! The German translation is apparently strange. Have fun, Iversen!
Fasulye-Babylonia |
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Shopping in Latin? Interesting task. Tagalog is not yet one of my languages, but maybe some day in the future.
I can see some errors here and there (and strangely enough the German version is one of the worst), but it is not difficult to imagine that these machine transaltions can be developed to a point where a human learner needs several years to make LESS errors than the machines. My personal feeling is that this will kill off much of the foreign language learning in the world, leaving a few fanatics like us.
GR: Fatma πρέπει να πάει στο σταθμό του τρένου.
... It would be more idiomatic to write 'στο σιδηροδρομικό σταθμό'
Ayse χρειάζεται ένα κιλό μήλα και τα αχλάδια.
... the article "τα" sounds clumsy
Θα πρέπει να κάνουμε κάποια ψώνια.
... wrong number, the translation is 1. person plural. It should be "να κάνω" in 1.person singular
RU: Фатьмы должны идти на вокзал.
... I wonder why Fatma has become plural here
Айзе нужен килограмм яблок и груш.
... I look in vain for 'one' ("одинг")
Я должен сделать некоторые покупки.
... Maybe rather something like "Мне нужно сделать некоторые покупки"
Swedish:
Jag måste göra en del shopping.
This means: 'I have to do quite a lot of shopping'. "At göra några inköp" is a more modest activity
And now the missing languages:
Afrikaans:
Fatma moet gaan na die treinstasie.
Ayse benodig 'n kilogram van appels en peers.
Ek moet doen sommige inkopies doen
Islenska:
Fatma verður að gá til järnbrautarstödins
Ayse þarf eitt kílógramm epla og perar
Eg neydast til að gera sumu innkaup
Latine sermo:
Fatmae ad stationem ferriviaris eundum est
Aysae necesse est una chilogramma malorum perarumque.
Mihi emptum ire necesse est.
Esperanto:
Fatma devas iri al la fervoja stacio.
Aysa havas bezonon de unu kilogramo da pomoj kaj da piroj.
Mi devas fari kelkajn aĉetadojn
Platt:
Fatma mutt gahn toe de Bahnhoff
Ayse bruk een Kilo Appeln un Beren
Ik mutt een Poor Dinger kopen
Edited by Iversen on 01 May 2009 at 1:09am
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Fasulye
Heptaglot
Winner TAC 2012
Moderator
Germany
fasulyespolyglotblog
Joined 5848 days ago
5460 posts - 6006 votes
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Speaks: German*, DutchC1, EnglishB2, French, Italian, Spanish, Esperanto
Studies: Latin, Danish, Norwegian, Turkish
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| Message 658 of 3959 12 April 2009 at 10:47pm | IP Logged |
Iversen wrote:
Fasulye wrote:
My original English sentences:
Fatma must go to the train station.
Ayse needs a kilo of apples and pears.
I must do some shopping.
Fasulye-Babylonia |
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Shopping in Latin? Interesting task. Tagalog is not yet one of my languages, but maybe some day in the future.
Afrikaans:
Fatma moet gaan na die treinstasie.
Ayse benodig 'n kilogram van appels en peers.
Ek moet doen sommige inkopies doen
Islenska:
Fatma verður að gá til järnbrautarstödins
Ayse þarf eitt kílógramm epla og perar
Eg neydast til að gera sumu innkaup
Latine sermo:
Fatmae ad stationem ferriviaris eundum est
Aysae necesse est una chilogramma malorum perarumque.
Mihi emptum ire necesse est.
Esperanto:
Fatma devas iri al la fervojo stacio.
Aysa havas bezonon de unu kilogramo de pomoj kaj de piroj.
Mi devas fari kelkajn aĉetadojn
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First I have to admit that I made a mistake in my original English sentences. It has to be "railway station" (BE) or "railroad station" (AE) instead of "train station", my friend corrected me when I told him about my machine translation experiment.(edit) Having discussed "train station" with two American native speakers and being checked by Iversens Google search, there seems to be nothing wrong with this expression. So I will continue using it.
Of course I know, that you, Iversen, are not learning Tagalog as one of your foreign languages, but you have shown some latent interest for this language, so I chose to give a machine translation for this language as well.
My Esperanto translation:
Fatma devas iri al la stacidomo.
Ayse bezonas unu kilogramon da pomoj kaj da piroj.
Mi devas acxeti kelkajn aferojn. = Mi devas iomete butikumi.
I am now using my father's computer, as I am his guest during Easter. He also lives in NRW in the Sauerland region. But I don't visit him very often.
Fasulye-Babylonia
Edited by Fasulye on 13 April 2009 at 7:39am
2 persons have voted this message useful
| Recht
Diglot
Senior Member
United States
Joined 5802 days ago
241 posts - 270 votes
Speaks: English*, GermanB1
| Message 659 of 3959 12 April 2009 at 10:49pm | IP Logged |
Iversen wrote:
Recht wrote:
Ich habe mit deiner Methode "word lists" angefangen. 4
Woerter gelernt....nicht schlecht. Hoffentlich ~15 mehr heute Abend. Heute hab ich das
Woerterbuch "Grosses Taschenwoerterbuch Englisch" von Langenscheidt gekauft. Es gibt
rund 130.000 Woerter oder "Stichwoerter", wie es sagt. aha, jetzt hab ich das Wort
gelernt! Das Buch soll mein ganzes Leben dauern. Ich werde warscheinlich andere
Buecher kaufen...nur einige ist nichts! |
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130.000 Wörter
--------------- = fast 24 Jahren
15 Wörter
Ich muß sagen, daß einige Leute hier langfristig planen!
Wenn ich Wortlisten schreibe, nehme ich ein Stück Papir, falte ihn einmal (A4 --> A5),
und die Breite von 21 cm unterteile ich in 4 Kolonnen von etwa 6, 6, 4 und 4 cm. Die
Kolonnen I und II werden dreifach untergeteilt: L2, L1, L2 | L2, L1, L2
|, wo L1 und L2 verschiedene Farben haben. Die restlichen Kolonnen sind für
Repetition vorgesehen: L1, L2 | L1 L2. L1 = Muttersprache (oder Basissprache),
L2 = Zielsprache.
Früher habe ich drei Kolonnen gemacht L2, L1, L2 | L2, L1, L2 |L2, L1,
L2. Ich habe aber konstatiert, daß es öfters dazu kam, daß ich die Repetition nicht
gemacht habe. Dieses Problem ist jetzt gelöst, weil ich jetzt immer sehen kann, ob ich
'vergessen' habe, die Repetition zu machen.
Senkrecht in jede Kolonne kann ich ungefähr 30 Wörter schreiben (in 4-6 Gruppen). Also
kann ich auf eine nalbe Seite rund 60 Wörter als L2-L1-L2 schreiben, und das ist somit
automatisch meine 'Pensum-Einheit' geworden. Wenn ich sehr viel Zeit habe, kann ich
einen ganzen Bogen vollschreiben, d.h. 240 Wörter in einem Abend. Wenn ich wenig Zeit
habe, schreibe ich nur 60 Wörter in zwei Kolonnen), und das kan je nach der Sprache
eine oder zwei Stunden dauern (mehr Zeit für 'schwache' Sprachen). Aber ich mache
nicht gern weniger als 60 Wörter. Wenn ich auch dafür zu wenig Zeit habe, repetiere
ich lieber - daß geht viel schneller, weil die Wörter mir hier alle bekannt sind.
Die Wörterbücher müssen nicht unbedingt groß sein, - aber wie Fasulye schreibt, soll
ein Deutsches Wörterbuch unbedingt die Geschlecter der Wörter angeben, und ein
Russisches Wörterbuch muß unbedingt das Aspekt der Verben angeben, am liebsten auch
die Aspektpaare. Sonst ist es zu klein. Ich habe aber mit einigen Micro-Wörterbücher
gute Erfahrungen gehabt, und wenn ich auf der Reise bin, kann ein Micro-Wörterbuch das
einzige realistiche Mitbringsel sein.
--------
About wordlists. I take a sheet of paper and fold it once. For a long time I divided
the width of the paper in three parts (7+7+7 cm, if A4, less with American
Lettersize). In each column ich would write L2 L1 and L2 for each word. But I found it
difficult to keep track of my original wordlists and the separate sheets with
repetitions, and to be honest I also sometimes 'forgot' to write the repetitions. Now
I divide the width of the paper in 4 columns: 6 + 6 + 4 + 4 cm. The first two columns
are for the original word lists, the last two for the repetations. So now it is easy
to see how far I have got with the repetitions (which are absolutely essential to the
memorization process).
In each row of columns I and II I have each word as L2 L1 L2 (in two colours), and as
a part of the moethod the words are treated in groups of 5-7 word. The reason is that
memorization by simple repetetion is inefficient, - the efficient part of memorization
is to let each word 'slip away', do something else and then recall it. The immediate
recall is trained by learning the words in groups, the middle term recall is trained
by making a repetition round several hours or - better - the day after. For this I
write the clues (read 'translations') for 5-7 words and then make sure that I can
recall all the original words, - and I only write the L2's when I'm sure of that.
In one column I have around 30 words, which makes 60 for a halfpage and 240 for the
whole sheet. Sometimes I do fill a whole sheet with words, sometimes I only have time
for one halfpage - but if I can't even find time for that, I prefer doing some
repetition work, which is much faster because all the words are known from the initial
round. In other words, I would normally count on learning at least 60 words passively
in a go, and during the repetition I would be worried if I could remeber at least 50
of them after a short glance. To go from there to active use of those words I have to
use them.
I know that profArguelles has suggested short blocks and Siomotteikiru advocated
mammouth sessions, but for me one hour with a language is normally a suitable time:
the processes start running by themselves, and I don't get too bored or tired. But it
is harder with new languages - I still remember my first Russian and Greek wordlists
as heavy duty work, while I now can do them while watching TV.
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I've got all the time in the world! Long term I would like to be functionally native
(as you are with English). So far I've learned 20 or so new words with this method.
This is obviously not the maximum I can learn, but simply a few minutes out of the
day.
I am toying with the idea of doing first the word list for immediate "burning into"
the memory, and then several days later when you look at the list again you put the
word into anki. This seems like a good plan since the spaced repetition takes several
days to kick in, and if you could speed that process up by studying the words for a
few minutes it might speed up the learning process.
This extra step could be perhaps because my brain has not effectively discovered how
to study, as you simply look at a list. But so far this is great method.
1 person has voted this message useful
| Recht
Diglot
Senior Member
United States
Joined 5802 days ago
241 posts - 270 votes
Speaks: English*, GermanB1
| Message 660 of 3959 12 April 2009 at 10:53pm | IP Logged |
Fasulye wrote:
First I have to admit that I made an error in my original English sentences. It has to
be "railway station" (BE) or "railroad station" (AE) instead of "train station", my
friend corrected me, when I told him about my machine translation experiment.
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hmmm what's the difference? I'm American and I've heard all three. I could be
completely confused though :)
1 person has voted this message useful
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Fasulye
Heptaglot
Winner TAC 2012
Moderator
Germany
fasulyespolyglotblog
Joined 5848 days ago
5460 posts - 6006 votes
1 sounds
Speaks: German*, DutchC1, EnglishB2, French, Italian, Spanish, Esperanto
Studies: Latin, Danish, Norwegian, Turkish
Personal Language Map
| Message 661 of 3959 12 April 2009 at 10:58pm | IP Logged |
Recht wrote:
Fasulye wrote:
First I have to admit that I made an error in my original English sentences. It has to
be "railway station" (BE) or "railroad station" (AE) instead of "train station", my
friend corrected me, when I told him about my machine translation experiment.
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hmmm what's the difference? I'm American and I've heard all three. I could be
completely confused though :) |
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Recht, this is the information I got from my Langenscheidt German - English dictionary. "Train station" is not given there. "Train station" is quoted not in the monolingual Oxford Concise English Learners Dictionary either.
Fasulye-Babylonia
Edited by Fasulye on 12 April 2009 at 11:05pm
1 person has voted this message useful
| Recht
Diglot
Senior Member
United States
Joined 5802 days ago
241 posts - 270 votes
Speaks: English*, GermanB1
| Message 662 of 3959 12 April 2009 at 11:05pm | IP Logged |
Fasulye wrote:
Recht wrote:
Fasulye wrote:
First I have to admit that I made an error in my original English sentences. It has to
be "railway station" (BE) or "railroad station" (AE) instead of "train station", my
friend corrected me, when I told him about my machine translation experiment.
|
|
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hmmm what's the difference? I'm American and I've heard all three. I could be
completely confused though :) |
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Recht, this is the information I got from my English - German dictionary. "Train
station" is not given there. "Train station" is quoted not in the monolingual Oxford
Concise English Learners Dictionary either.
Fasulye-Babylonia |
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Ah ok. To be honest train station is much more common. I wonder why that is...
1 person has voted this message useful
| josht
Diglot
Senior Member
United States
Joined 6447 days ago
635 posts - 857 votes
Speaks: English*, German
Studies: French, Spanish, Russian, Dutch
| Message 663 of 3959 12 April 2009 at 11:12pm | IP Logged |
Fasulye wrote:
Recht wrote:
Fasulye wrote:
First I have to admit that I made an error in my original English sentences. It has to
be "railway station" (BE) or "railroad station" (AE) instead of "train station", my
friend corrected me, when I told him about my machine translation experiment.
|
|
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hmmm what's the difference? I'm American and I've heard all three. I could be
completely confused though :) |
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Recht, this is the information I got from my Langenscheidt German - English dictionary. "Train station" is not given there. "Train station" is quoted not in the monolingual Oxford Concise English Learners Dictionary either.
Fasulye-Babylonia |
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Just to throw in my $.02, I'm from Ohio, and I've never heard anyone say "railway station" or "railroad station." I've always heard "train station."
1 person has voted this message useful
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Fasulye
Heptaglot
Winner TAC 2012
Moderator
Germany
fasulyespolyglotblog
Joined 5848 days ago
5460 posts - 6006 votes
1 sounds
Speaks: German*, DutchC1, EnglishB2, French, Italian, Spanish, Esperanto
Studies: Latin, Danish, Norwegian, Turkish
Personal Language Map
| Message 664 of 3959 12 April 2009 at 11:17pm | IP Logged |
josht wrote:
| Just to throw in my $.02, I'm from Ohio, and I've never heard anyone say "railway station" or "railroad station." I've always heard "train station." |
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What's that? I am shocked now! What are my English dictionaries worth? For me it was natural to say "train station". But so far I could not verify that in my dictionaries searching under "Bahnhof".
Fasulye-Babylonia
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