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日本語 and me the next round TAC 2012 Team い | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Language Learning Log |  | |
| g-bod Diglot Senior Member United KingdomRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5974 days ago 1485 posts - 2002 votes  Speaks: English*, Japanese Studies: French, German | Message 1 of 333 16 December 2011 at 9:43pm | IP Logged |
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I really like the idea of having a year long TAC log and then starting afresh. I think it's quite good to take an opportunity to look at what you have achieved, and reevaluate your goals with fresh eyes. The only downside is the lack of continuity, so for anybody who is interested, some older logs from me below:
A Japanese Log (Aug-Nov 2008) TAC 09 (Jan-Dec 2009) In 2010 I didn't keep a log (and ended up not really studying for most of the year anyway) TAC 2011 Team あ (Jan-Dec 2011) I'm really glad I kept these logs now. I'd almost completely forgotten about the older ones and now I realise that I've got a record right back to August 2008 when I knew practically nothing. I've still got a long way to go of course, but this has given me a good sense of how far I've come too. I'm looking forward to building on that in 2012. I see that my goals for 2011 were set out in terms of the JLPT. I started off at an N4 level and was aiming for N2. Well, I guess I've finished the year at around N3. Having actually sat an N3 practice test for fun (what kind of fun is that???) a few weeks ago, I'm pretty sure that if I took the N3 tomorrow, I would pass. N2, on the other hand, still got a long way to go. This year, my goals are a lot more general. Actually, my only real goal is to be better at Japanese this time next year than I am right now! But more specifically, I want to work a lot harder at building up my speaking ability and, to a lesser extent, my writing ability. I want to get better at using the Japanese I already know. But on top of that I want to get to know more Japanese. I seem to be stuck in a permanent revision cycle with beginner/upper beginner level textbooks. I think because I always judge myself on my weakest skill (speaking), I feel I haven't mastered everything so I can't move on. I just pick another book that teaches the same thing. So for the start of 2012 I am going to pick an intermediate level textbook and start slowly working with that, while also concentrating on doing things that will improve my basic command of spoken Japanese. I haven't completely decided which texts/methods I will start the 2012 TAC with, but I shall return by 31st December to set out my plans, before conquering Japanese once and for all! Edited by g-bod on 05 September 2012 at 11:38pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| Sunja Diglot Senior Member Germany Joined 6077 days ago 2020 posts - 2295 votes 1 sounds Speaks: English*, German Studies: French, Mandarin | Message 2 of 333 16 December 2011 at 10:17pm | IP Logged |
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This is about where I was when I took a break -- somewhere hovering between JLPT 3 and 2! Bah, it's a very frustrating place to be! I was spending all of my time reviewing and I couldn't tell if I was moving forward or not. I look forward to reading your plan for the coming year!
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| g-bod Diglot Senior Member United KingdomRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5974 days ago 1485 posts - 2002 votes Speaks: English*, Japanese Studies: French, German | Message 3 of 333 16 December 2011 at 10:39pm | IP Logged |
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Yes I think it's at this point where the huge lack of cognates with English really starts to bite. The learning curve for Japanese must be quite different to that of a European language. I'm determined not to take a break though. I want my Japanese to get to a point where I can just pick up a novel or put on a radio podcast and understand enough to maintain from there. Then I'll take a break.
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| kraemder Senior Member United StatesRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5176 days ago 1497 posts - 1648 votes Speaks: English* Studies: German, Spanish, Japanese | Message 4 of 333 17 December 2011 at 3:40am | IP Logged |
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I personally have found lack of cognates, alphabet, and even grammar being at all related to English to bite every step of the way in Japanese. Not just after I started getting past the basics. Well I am just getting past the basics and I'm a bit behind you I would guess since you've studied it longer. I guess the feeling of accomplishment that goes with any progress in Japanese is a big motivator considering how notoriously difficult the language is.
I'm wondering - how many kanji do you feel you know now? How do you go about tackling kanji? Does kanji hold you back with the language do you think? Anyway - I've used Rosetta Stone some. I haven't completed the series so I can't totally recommend it but I'm convinced it's a good way to better your speaking ability. They do a good job of giving example sentences of increasing grammatical difficulty and associating them with pictures. And there's the added motivation of a session with a native speaker where you get to show off what you know. I would recommend making flashcards to study the material since the lessons themselves don't test you on your ability to produce Japanese unfortunately but it's not too hard to make your own study cards. 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| Brun Ugle Diglot Senior Member Norway brunugle.wordpress.c Joined 6612 days ago 1292 posts - 1766 votes Speaks: English*, NorwegianC1 Studies: Japanese, Esperanto, Spanish, Finnish | Message 5 of 333 17 December 2011 at 9:59am | IP Logged |
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I understand what you mean about being caught in a revision cycle. I tend to do the same thing. I think the important thing is to find something and stick to it, at least long enough to really find out if it's working, which is probably months rather than days or weeks. It's very hard to get a sense of progress at the intermediate level, but it does happen, even if you can't see it.
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| g-bod Diglot Senior Member United KingdomRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5974 days ago 1485 posts - 2002 votes Speaks: English*, Japanese Studies: French, German | Message 6 of 333 17 December 2011 at 10:27am | IP Logged |
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Hmmm kanji. I will start by saying that one thing which drew to to Japanese in the first place was a desire to get to know the writing system, so to me it is all part of the fun, rather than a necessary evil.
To start with I used Genki as my main textbook and studied the kanji out of that. My main method involved writing the kanji out a few times to get a feel for how it was made up and to try and make it look balanced and legible. Then I'd put the example words for that kanji into an Anki deck to test both recognition and writing, and I would have a squared pad next to my computer for the writing bit. The layout of my cards were as follows: Question: 日本語 Answer: にほんご Japanese Question: にほんご Japanese Answer: 日本語 After getting a few chapters into Genki I started working with Basic Kanji Book, adding to the Anki deck but also making sure to do all the exercises in the book and studying the information about kanji in the book which while brief was useful. I got halfway through Basic Kanji Book 2 before dropping it in favour of Kanji in Context, which covers 1947 kanji and is aimed at intermediate/advanced learners. In retrospect, I think this was a mistake as it was a bit above my level. The course relies on you using a reference book, which lists all the vocabulary ordered by kanji, and the workbook which uses that vocabulary in example expressions and sentences. The example sentences were too advanced for me at that point, so I ended up just using the reference book and putting the words into Anki. The problem is that while I picked up how to read and write some useful words that way, there was also a lot of abstract vocabulary that was beyond my ability to use or understand because I had no context to go with it. I found myself in a weird position where I could "read" (as in pronounce) certain words if I saw them, but still had no idea what they meant. I stopped studying in this way in spring, after covering around 500 kanji. I then went back and played with the workbooks a bit, but didn't get beyond the first dozen or so chapters (there are 143 chapters in total!) I dropped the Anki deck a few months later (after keeping it going for nearly three years) after just getting fed up with the amount of time I was spending on Anki in general. Since then my writing skills have diminished because I simply don't practice them. But my reading has gone from strength to strength. I think my brain is starting to accept the idea of kanji now and I find it easier to remember how to recognise and read words even if I haven't formally studied their component kanji before. I also find that at times I seem to notice the same new kanji in a number of different words in a short space of time. When this happens it's great because it makes it so much easier to remember the words and the kanji. So I can't say for certain any more how many kanji I "know". It's not up to JLPT N2 yet but I'm think I'm generally pretty comfortable with N3 level kanji. So maybe somewhere between 500 and 1000 kanji. 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| g-bod Diglot Senior Member United KingdomRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5974 days ago 1485 posts - 2002 votes Speaks: English*, Japanese Studies: French, German | Message 7 of 333 23 December 2011 at 10:56pm | IP Logged |
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Language Plans for 2012
I think I have a good idea about what I need to do to really level up my Japanese this year. The problem is that I have collected so many resources since I started studying Japanese but realistically I probably only need to use a fraction of them, if I pick them wisely and use them well. I remember last year I set out a whole lot of different things I planned to do in the year, and didn’t finish any of them. But my Japanese progressed nevertheless. Looking at the materials I’ve got and what I want to achieve, I have decided I should focus on no more than three core texts at a time: a general text which introduces new grammar, alongside listening and reading passages for intensive study, a text which focuses on reading and kanji, and a text which focuses on the spoken language. The texts I have chosen are as follows: General: Japanese for Busy People, followed by An Integrated Approach to Intermediate Japanese Kanji/Reading: Basic Kanji Book 2, followed by Intermediate Kanji Books 1 & 2 Spoken Language: Japanese: The Spoken Language I am starting in the upper beginner range for general and kanji. I probably could go straight into the intermediate level texts but I just can’t get over the guilt of not finishing anything off properly! However, by the time I finish the class I am attending in May, we should have covered most of Japanese for Busy People and a good few hundred kanji anyway, so I think I will use this as a natural cut off point for beginner level texts and force myself on to the next level even if I haven’t finished JfBP and Basic Kanji Book by that point. Of course, textbooks and learner materials are only one part of the challenge and this year I really need to get using Japanese as much as possible. Speaking and writing are my weakest skills and I really want to work on learning how to use the Japanese I already understand. Attending the class should help a little bit with this. I am due to restart regular Skype sessions which I had to suspend last year due to coursework commitments. I hope that the drills in Japanese: The Spoken Language will help a little bit, particularly with pronunciation, but I also intend to start experimenting with some of Arekkusu’s suggestions for “self-talk” exercises. In terms of writing, I intend to put a weekly piece of writing up on lang-8. I made some vague noises about doing this last year but it never turned into anything. This year I am determined to post something every weekend unless I have a very good reason not to. I am also going to experiment with keeping a handwritten personal diary. Since dropping my Anki writing practice deck, my ability to reproduce kanji on demand is definitely not as sharp as it once was. I am not inclined to start again with Anki, but I think a personal diary should perhaps help me get regular practice with the kanji which are most relevant to my own everyday life. And the final part of all this is the adoption of a general principle of: read, read, read and listen, listen, listen. I have, quite literally, a stack of native materials, including picture books, graded readers for children, novels for children, novels for adults, a small selection of manga… Actually, I’m at the point now where I can pick up a manga (or at least one with furigana) for fun and follow the story with only the occasional dictionary look up. Novels and news articles are still a step too far but I am sure steady work will help me build up to this over the coming months as well. I have decided that, for now, Anki is no longer serving me. Being tied in to daily reviews was fine when my social life was limited by the demands of my masters course, but now I would prefer the flexibility to be able to take a few days off “studying” in order to enjoy myself, without having to “pay back” with more reviews when I return. This week I haven’t “studied” at all – I’ve been visiting family instead, which is far more important. But I’ve also done things like reading manga and following Asahi Shimbun on Twitter. It’s a more flexible, fun and useful approach. Anki still scores on utility, but without the flexibility I’m no longer interested. So in summary, I intend my approach to study over the next few months to comprise the following: - Japanese for Busy People followed by Integrated Approach to Intermediate Japanese (for grammar) - Basic Kanji Book followed by Intermediate Kanji Books (for kanji/reading) - Japanese: The Spoken Language (for drills and pronunciation) - Attend Japanese class (for speaking and writing) - Skype language exchange (for speaking) - “Self-talk” exercises (for speaking) - Post a piece to Lang-8 on a weekly basis (for writing) - Keep a handwritten journal (for writing and kanji) - Read lots of native materials (for…reading?) - Listen to lots of native materials (for…listening?) - Don’t use Anki (for flexibility and/or sanity) Edited by g-bod on 23 December 2011 at 10:58pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| Sunja Diglot Senior Member Germany Joined 6077 days ago 2020 posts - 2295 votes 1 sounds Speaks: English*, German Studies: French, Mandarin | Message 8 of 333 24 December 2011 at 11:28am | IP Logged |
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I have the Japanese f. Busy People Series, too. I first saw it back in the 90's -- somebody handed me the first book which was only in romanji:
"Sumisu-san wa bengoshi desu." How times have changed! It's a good thing they've added kanji to the series, but I still don't think it's enough. The drills are still good and I get a lot out of the books as a whole. 1 person has voted this message useful |
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