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Iversen’s Multiconfused Log (see p.1!) | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Language Learning Log |  | |
| montmorency Diglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 4836 days ago 2371 posts - 3676 votes  Speaks: English*, German Studies: Danish, Welsh | Message 3697 of 3959 16 September 2014 at 11:08pm | IP Logged |
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Thank you Iversen.
I'm slightly disappointed, but clearly, word-lists work better for you. 1 person has voted this message useful | |
 Iversen Super Polyglot Moderator Denmark berejst.dk Joined 6711 days ago 9078 posts - 16473 votes Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian Personal Language Map | Message 3698 of 3959 16 September 2014 at 11:50pm | IP Logged |
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As I see it the culprit is the warning against association making, which amounts to telling me that I should refrain from remembering those words. A word without associations is for me a non-word, a thing that I have turned my back on. And the question is why a successful language learner and teacher like David James/uncle Davey/Huliganov would issue such a warning - which reminds me of warning against putting gasoline into a car. Maybe he has grown disillusioned with the kind of associations used by memory artists (who typically have to remember known things in a specific order, where language learners have to remember more or less unknown items in no special order), but there are other kinds of associations which are more in line with the task at hand.
By the way: at my job today a collegue was curious about my wordlist method (which I mentioned when I explained what I'm going to talk about in Novi Sad), so I gave her a mini course in the method using Greek words from a Micro Langenscheidt - about 15 minutes, which I suppose I can file under 'Internal courses' in our time registration system. SE: Је вероватно да не изненађује никога да имам текстове на српском језику у мојој торби за читање у аутобусу-на-кућу, али неке од тих текстова је рекао за Србију пре пораза Османлија, и изгледало је прилично сложно и крваво. Да бисте разумели везу, ја сам штампао листе краљи за Србију и Хрватску из енглеске Википедиа, али ја сам постао још више збуњује! Такође читао текстове о Задра, Бања Лука, Нови Сад и Београд. Међу овим градовима, само ја знам Београд из ранијих посета. Али ја сам студирао распореде аутобуса на интернету, а чини се да је могуће вожње од Задра преко Бања Луке до Новог Сада - а на мапи ово је најдиректнији пут. Ако неко зна ситуацију доле, ја бих да чујем више. Edited by Iversen on 16 September 2014 at 11:59pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | |
| Iversen Super Polyglot Moderator Denmark berejst.dk Joined 6711 days ago 9078 posts - 16473 votes Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian Personal Language Map | Message 3699 of 3959 17 September 2014 at 2:53pm | IP Logged |
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EO: Hodiaŭ mi legis intervjuon kun Ilona Koutny, profesorino ĉe la Universitato Mickiewicz en Poznano, kie oni ofertas studojn de interligvistiko kaj Esperanto. Ilona K estis elektita esperantisto de la jaro 2008 en la enketo de "La Ondo", unu revuo esperanta eldonita en Kaliningrado. ŝi rekonas ke la movado esperanta estas en stato de "dinamika stagnado" - t.e. la nombro de esperantistoj ne kreskas. Ankaŭ mi ne parolas aŭ skribis multe en Esperanto lastatempa, kaj la okazego de konferencoj multilingvaj ankaŭ implicas, ke mi post la konference en Galivo in Irlando ne partoprenis en neniu konferenco de esperantistoj. Sed en Berlino ĝi evidentiĝis ke Esperanto estis tre populara, do mi devis refreŝigi ĝin per tekstoj kunportataj.
La intervjuo estas videbla en la hejmpago de La Ondo. Poste mi ankaŭ trovis intervjuon kun Katalin Kováts, esperantist(in)o de la jaro 2010, kiu proklamas ke la "Instruantoj de Esperanto estas la 'soldatoj' de nia movado". N.B: la internaj ligiloj de esperanto-ondo.ru ne funkcias - oni devas uzi Googlon.. PS: Danke al Radioclaro mi nun scias ke la Universala Kongreso 2016 okazos en Nitro en Slovakio - kaj Nitro feliĉe estas vizitebla sen ruinigigi sin. Edited by Iversen on 18 September 2014 at 2:44pm 4 persons have voted this message useful | |
| Radioclare Triglot Senior Member United Kingdom timeofftakeoff.com Joined 4591 days ago 689 posts - 1119 votes Speaks: English*, German, Esperanto Studies: Croatian, Serbian, Macedonian | Message 3700 of 3959 17 September 2014 at 11:41pm | IP Logged |
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Mi ĝis nun ĉeestis nur unu Universalan Kongreson - tiu en Bialistoko dum 2009 - kaj mi
tiom malĝuis la sperton ke mi tiutempe ĵuris ke mi neniam denove partoprenos tian aranĝon. Tiu kongreso en Nitra tamen vere tentas min, kaj pro la beleco de la loko kaj la preteksto eklerni la slovakan :) Никада нисам била у Бањој Луци, па не знам колико дуго трају путовања аутобyсом из Задра или до Београда. Аутобуси у Хрватској обично су добри, па мислим да ће пут из Задра вјеројатно бити угодан. Међутим мислим да сам ја ти, путовала бих можда аутобусом из Задра до Загреба, а онда влаком из Загреба до Београда. Има много аутобуса сваки дан између Задра и Загреба и - ако се добро сјећам - тај пут траје само четири сата. Има двије врсте аутобуса - неки иду аутопутем (што је брзо), други иду кроз мала села (што је спорије) - ако питаш некога у аутобусном колодвору у Задру, сигурно ће ти моћи објаснити који је који. Мислим да је аутобус за Загреб сваки сат, па није потребно резервирати мјесто. Између Загреба и Београда иде један влак свако јутро. Знам да сам рекла да су српски влакови страшни, али овај долази из Швицарске, па је довољно добро. Нисам путовала овако до Београда, али сам прошле године путовала од Љубљане до Загреба истим влаком и нисам имала проблема. Мислим да пут до Београда траје отприлике шест сати. Па, то је наравно само један приједлог, и чини ми се да није тако директно као преко Бање Луке. Можда само мало лакше, ако су аутобуси између Задра и Загреба чешћи него аутобуси између Задра и Бање Луке. Задар је ионако јако лијеп град - мој омиљени град у Хрватској. Сигурна сам да ће ти се свиђа :) (Написла сам ово на хрватском, а на ћирилицу; знам да је то мало чудно, али требам да вјежбам на ћирилицу!) 2 persons have voted this message useful | |
| Iversen Super Polyglot Moderator Denmark berejst.dk Joined 6711 days ago 9078 posts - 16473 votes Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian Personal Language Map | Message 3701 of 3959 19 September 2014 at 12:49am | IP Logged |
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EO: Mi partoprenis en la universala konferenco en Kopenhago en 2011, kaj mi ŝatis esti tie, sed ne tiam mi ne jam parolis bone kaj likve. Kaj mi ne parolis multe. En Galivo en 2012 mi povis paroli pli bone, kaj mi certe parolis plu - kaj nur en esperanto. Poste mi ne partoprenis en neniu okazaĵo de esperantajo, kaj tiu jaro en Berlino deskopertis ke mi esperanto fariĝis iom 'rusta'.
SE: Ако аутобус о који сам читао на интернету, трчање, приказују пут од Задра до Бања Луке осам сати (од звона 15.00). Према интернету, ради неколико аутобуса из Бања Луке у Београд и у Нови Сад. Али постоје добри односи између Бањалуке и Загреба. Ја сам неколико пута већ посетио Загреб, а ја желим да поново посети овај град, али је забавније да посете ново место. Путовао сам возом од Плоча до Сарајева и од Сарајева до Београда преко Врпоље у 2003 години. Just for your information: Radioclare and I discuss Esperanto congresses and travel routes on Balkan. I have somehow got the idea that it might be interesting to travel from Zadar to Novi Sad through Banja Luka - which on the map is the most direct route. But these places lie in three different countries so it may become slightly be complicated - there are not many buses on the route, but if I can get on the 15.00 bus from Zadar and find a hotel in Banja Luka the rest should be quite easy. The alternative is to go through Zagreb as suggested by Radioclare, but I have already been there. Edited by Iversen on 19 September 2014 at 10:31am 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| Radioclare Triglot Senior Member United Kingdom timeofftakeoff.com Joined 4591 days ago 689 posts - 1119 votes Speaks: English*, German, Esperanto Studies: Croatian, Serbian, Macedonian | Message 3702 of 3959 19 September 2014 at 10:01am | IP Logged |
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Слажем се да је узбудљивије ићи у нове градове. Још нисам била у Босни, па ћу се радовати да читам о твојим авантурама :)
1 person has voted this message useful | |
| Iversen Super Polyglot Moderator Denmark berejst.dk Joined 6711 days ago 9078 posts - 16473 votes Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian Personal Language Map | Message 3703 of 3959 22 September 2014 at 10:28am | IP Logged |
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My main activity yesterday (Sunday) actually had something to do with language learning, albeit in a somewhat indirect way: I went through all my piles of papers and printouts, distributed the latter into some paper folders which I bought and organized some three years ago (one per language or language group) and threw all text copies and most of my wordlists away. There is little chance that I'll ever read a text copy, but I might take up an old wordlist to see whether I remember anything on it so I have kept the newer ones, including the set I have used for my Serbian project. I also looked through a number of printouts from articles, including some that dealt with language learning. Some articles (like Mondria's about myths) I had kept in their entirety, while other printouts contained collections of quotes with sources.
In one of the collections I noticed some quotes from an article named "Current Research and Practice in Teaching Vocabulary" by Alan Hunt and David Beglar. I noticed it because several points on their checklist almost could have been written by myself: Learners need to do more than just see the form (Channell, 1988). They need to hear the pronunciation and practice saying the word aloud as well (Ellis & Beaton, 1993; Fay and Cutler, 1977; Siebert, 1927). The syllable structure and stress pattern of the word are important because they are two ways in which words are stored in memory (Fay and Cutler, 1977). Start by learning semantically unrelated words. Also avoid learning words with similar forms (Nation, 1990) and closely related meanings (Higa, 1963; Tinkham, 1993) at the same time. For example, because affect and effect have similar forms, simultaneously studying them is likely to cause confusion. Also, bilingual vocabulary books often simply list words in alphabetical order, increasing the chances of confusing words that start with the same syllable. Likewise, words with similar, opposite, or closely associated (e.g., types of fruit, family members) meanings may interfere with one another if they are studied at the same time. It is more effective to study words regularly over several short sessions than to study them for one or two longer sessions. As most forgetting occurs immediately after initial exposure to the word (Pimsleur, 1967), repetition and review should take place almost immediately after studying a word for the first time. Study 5-7 words at a time, dividing larger numbers of words into smaller groups. As learners review these 5-7 cards, they will more quickly get repeated exposure to the words than when larger groups (20-30) are studied. Use activities like the keyword technique to promote deeper mental processing and better retention (Craik and Lockhart, 1972). Associating a visual image with a word helps learners remember the word. A wide variety of L2 information can be added to the cards for further elaboration. Newly met words can be consciously associated with other L2 words that the learner already knows (Prince, 1996), and this word can be added to the card. Also, sentence examples, part of speech, definitions, and keyword images can be added (see Schmitt & Schmitt, 1995). When I saw the part about "5-7 words" I almost feared that I had copied something when I invented my own wordlist method, but no, this article was published in 1998, but when I invented my wordlist layout in January 2007 I definitely hadn't read this article - the 5-7 word idea is simply based on the immediate memory span for an average human being. The authors of the article from 1998 clearly prefer some kind of flash cards - after all they wrote before computer based SRS programs (like Mnemosyne from 2003) were invented - but otherwise their article just corroborates my own conclusions about vocabulary learning. I prefer wordlists, and I have not written much about reading words aloud while doing them for the simple reason that I don't do it myself - I just think the words. I also feel that the reference to bilingual dictionaries as mere lists of words is unfair: small bilingual dictionaries may indeed be mere lists of words with one or two translations per headword, but at least they contain translations, and translations may be more informative than loose and inexact explanations. Small monolingual dictionaries may not even have explanations. Another article which was represented as a couple of quotes is called "Incidental vocabulary acquisition from reading, reading-while-listening, and listening to stories" by Brown, Waring and Donkaewbua. It is a report from an experiment where student of English from a Japanese university were supposed to learn vocabulary from spoken, spoken-and-read and read texts without the use of a dictionary. Actually the dictionaries would have been irrelevant because the method was to replace certain words by nonsense words and then leaving it to the test persons to figure out their meaning from the context. By and large the test persons preferred a combination of reading and listening, and they also got better results with this than from either reading or - even word - listening alone. Several different methods were used to assess the number of 'words' they learned, but all in all the results were fairly dismal: Of the two tests, the meaning-translation test is probably the one that most closely indicates whether a subject actually knew the meaning of the word while reading and listening. This is because it shows that the subject is not only capable of recognizing the word but can also assign a meaning to it without being prompted. In Table 4, the meaning-translation test results across all texts show that 16% (4.39) of the 28 words were learned in the reading-while-listening mode. This rate of acquisition is followed closely in the reading-only mode, which yielded gains of 15% (4.10) of the 28 target words. This reading-only rate matches that in the Waring and Takaki (2003) study, in which the meaning-translation test scores showed that 18% of the 25 target words were learned. In the present study, gains in the listening-only mode were minimal with only 2% (0.56) of the 28 words learned. Which leaves the nagging question: what does it take beyond listening and/or reading to learn words from context? Edited by Iversen on 22 September 2014 at 12:28pm 3 persons have voted this message useful | |
| Iversen Super Polyglot Moderator Denmark berejst.dk Joined 6711 days ago 9078 posts - 16473 votes Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian Personal Language Map | Message 3704 of 3959 25 September 2014 at 11:20pm | IP Logged |
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GR: Μετά το δικο μου μεγάλο συμμάζεμα το περασμένο Σαββατοκύριακο έχω τόσα πολλά πράματα για να διαβάσει ότι δεν έχω χρόνο για όλα. Για παράδειγμα, βρήκα ένα παχύ συλλογή των εκτυπωμένων κειμένων που ήταν πάρα πολύ δύσκολα για εμένα, όπως εγώ τους συγκεντρώθηκαν. Μ έσκαψα στη συνέχεια μέσα από ένα άρθρο για ένα βιβλίο από Βερέμης, και αυτό το άρθρο ήταν γεμάτη από «καθαρή» λέξη. Διάβασα επίσης για τη δορυφορική Rosetta (όχι, αυτή δεν είναι ένα παρακλάδι του πολύ-κράχτης Εκδοτική), ο οποίος ήταν να επισκεφθείτε τον κομήτη Τωουριούμοφ-Γκερασιμένκο, και στη συνέχεια διάβασα ένα άρθρο σχετικά με τις δασικές πυρκαγιές στην Ανατολική Αττική - αλλά επίσης σταμάτησα. Αυτή τη φορά είναι πολύ πιο εύκολο να διαβάσετε τα άρθρα, αλλά όταν τα μελετήσει εντατικά, έχω μάθει πολλά ακόμα. Για παράδειγμα, διάβασα για τον παγετό στην Καστοριά και Φλώρινα - έχω επισκεφθεί και τις δύο πόλεις, αλλά στο ζεστό καλοκαιρινό καιρό. Τότε διάβασα ένα παλιό άρθρο από την περίοδο πριν από την κρίση, η οποία Αθηνών ονομάστηκε μια από τις πιο ακριβές πόλεις της Ευρώπης, και ένα άλλο ο το ψηφιακό πλανητάριο στην Αθήνα. Και υπάρχουν ακόμη πολλά είδη της συλλογής.
EN: I found a lot of interesting things in my piles of print-outs last weekend when I cleaned up the mess. For instance a thick collection of Greek journalistic texts from the internet which I dropped years back because they were too hard, even with a translation. One reason for this was that they contained a fair amount of Katharevousa words, and I also have seen references to the tendency of journalists to keep that kind of language artifically alive. But now they are at just the right level for me: I can read the Greek texts with just a few peeks at the translations, but there is still a lot to learn in them. Some of them were slightly musty already when I picked them, like an article from before the crisis about the high price levels in Athens. However Greek hasn't pushed the other language groupes out of my study plan. I regularly watch TV in Serbian, Croatian and even Polish (although I focus on the Southern Slavic languages here before Novi Sad), and lo and behold, I have found a much more detailed program for that event in Serbian than the version you can see in this very moment at the English site - please visit this page to be properly informed about the lectures. How come that the English site hasn't been updated with these informations? Is all information to foreigners supposed to pass through Facebook? To boost my Romance languages I have made a text collection about paleontology in Portuguese, Spanish and Catalan. I have been reading about the Devonian era in Italian in the bus-back-from-work, and I have texts in about similar subjects in the other language waiting for me - plus the article in Serbian about the Triassic I just have finish studying (as usual thanks to Wikipedia). One of the more unexpected finds was a long and enthousiastic blog message in Spanish about the Museum of Natural History in New York, complete with pictures of photos of the critters - I found it while perusing articles about extinct rhino-like non-rhinos like Brontops and the Tithanotheres. And besides I have done a couple of Icelandic wordlist - I have been neglecting this language for quite some time, but I can still read it without much ado. Edited by Iversen on 25 September 2014 at 11:37pm 1 person has voted this message useful |
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