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Iversen’s Multiconfused Log (see p.1!) | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Language Learning Log |  | |
 Iversen Super Polyglot Moderator Denmark berejst.dk Joined 6709 days ago 9078 posts - 16473 votes  Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian Personal Language Map | Message 3505 of 3959 23 January 2014 at 6:58pm | IP Logged | ||
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Thanks to Josquin for those paradigms. I don't plan to study the older stages of Irish or its predecessors, but I find it easier to deal with patterns that don't seem to be totally devoid of logic, and with the combination of nualeargais' explanations and Josquin's paradigms I'm much closer to understanding the system.
NO: Akkurat nå titter eg på et norsk program på svensk TV2 om Vigelandsparka i Oslo. Men ellers har eg tenkt å studera denne kveld. Edited by Iversen on 23 January 2014 at 6:58pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Iversen Super Polyglot Moderator Denmark berejst.dk Joined 6709 days ago 9078 posts - 16473 votes Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian Personal Language Map | Message 3506 of 3959 24 January 2014 at 1:27pm | IP Logged | ||
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Ș Ț Ă Î ș ț ă â î
RO: Ieri am studiat, printre altele, un text despre o vizită pe lacul Grivița aproape de București, și autorul l-a descris ca un loc pustiu, care a avut odată acces public, dar acum e rezervat pentru proprietarii de terenurii fără câteva loturi goale umplute cu buruieni și sticle aruncate, unde se poate accede la mal lacului. Astăzi am vrut să raporteze despre activitățile de ieri și căutam prin Google pentru articolul de ieri fără a o găsi de loc. În schimb, am găsit o mulțime de anunțuri privind vânzare de case din zona, iar apoi am fost un pic curios. Wikipedia scrie aceste lucruri: " Lacul Grivița este un lac antropic amenajat pe râul Colentina, în București, sectorul 1, situat între lacul Străulești în amonte și lacul Băneasa în aval. Are o suprafață de 53 ha, lungimea de 3,8 km, lățimea între 50-500 m, o adâncime de 1-4 m, volum de l.000.000 m³, debit de 2,5 m/s.". Lac Baneasa? Am utilizat uneori aeroportul Băneasa – cine ar fi dorit să locuiește în apropiere de un aeroport? Dar cel puțin "pH-ul și amoniul se încadrează în limitele admise pe toata perioada efectuării analizelor. Nitrații sunt în limite normale, la fel și nitriții exceptând un vârf cu valoarea de 0,42 mg/l în luna noiembrie a anului 2007." Gândul.ro scrie astăzi despre lacul că "Doi tineri sunt căutaţi de scafandrii de la ISU în lacul Griviţa din Capitală, unde s-au aruncat pentru a scăpa de proprietarul unei case, care îi urmărea după ce i-a surprins în curtea propriei locuinţe (...)".Doar sub acest tragic mesaj se spune: "Un dulce neobișnuit, dar delicios - tortul din orez, budinca de cacao, nuci, nuca de cocos și dulceata de vișine îți va rasfata simturile." Eu nu am nevoia de literatură – realitățile sunt destul de aspre! I have studied some Romanian texts yesterday, including a report from a visit to Lake Grivita near Bucuresti in Romania. It was described as a desolate place, once open to the public - a place with alleys and a swimming pool and other commodities. But now basically a dump. When I tried to find this article again with Google to report about my study activities yesterday I failed - I simply drowned in ads with homes for sale by lake Grivita. Even after I had eliminated most sales pitches I failed to find it, but instead I found a lot of other information about the area, and no, it's not a place I would like to visit. For instance I found a report about a search for two children who jumped into the lake to get away from an irate landowner (who at least called 112, but apparently to no avail). What kind of place is that? And then I thought: one more reason why I don't need to read novels about fictive calamities. The realities are grim enough as they are, you don't need to add an extra dose of fictive misery. Edited by Iversen on 24 January 2014 at 2:27pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Iversen Super Polyglot Moderator Denmark berejst.dk Joined 6709 days ago 9078 posts - 16473 votes Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian Personal Language Map | Message 3507 of 3959 26 January 2014 at 3:02pm | IP Logged | ||
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FR: J'ai passé l'après-midi chez ma correspondante "à longue haleine" à laquelle j'ai envoyé tant de cartes postales dans les langues de presque tous les pays que j'ai visités depuis les années 70, et de laquelle j'ai reçu tant the cartes postales en français (parfois aussi d'autres languages, telles l'islandais) - toujours avec l'explication qu'elle a participé à telle ou telle conférence de enseignants de la langue française. J'avais l'intention de m'inscrire à une conférence polyglotte en Montréal s'il y en fût, mais contrairement a celle en Berline on n'entends rien du tout sur les activitées d'outremer, et maintenant j'ai discuté la possibilité avec ma connaissance correspondante de faire un tour d'auto à travers la Nouvelle-Terre du Canada. Une chose qui rend ce plan plausible est qu'elle est très francophile, et je suppose qu'on pourrait faire de nôtre projet un voyage monolingue - en français. À voir si on arrive à le faire...
RU: Сегодня я изучил статью из "Вокруг Света" о геологии, точнее: эрозии, которая происходит при воздействии воды. Есть в этом определенные слова, что я даже не могу найти в моем словаре, но контекст обычно дает разумное толкование. Позвольте мне привести пример: "Каждый раз, когда волны накатывакуются на берег". Что может сделать волны вблизи (или против) берегу? Они могут катиться. И "катить" - в словаре, но нет "накатываться". RO: Am citit, de asemenea, în mod extensiv, note de călătorii în limba româna, inclusiv o notă din site 1001calatorii.com despre oraşul Howth la nord de Dublin (și accesibil pe calea ferată). Scriitorul (scriitoara?) "Anca" scrie că nu a găsit castelul, iar restul de articol vorbește despre o plimbare de-a lungul coastei. Eu în fapt am găsit acest castel evaziv, unde am aflat o scoală de bucătări și un muzeu de transport. Drumul parcului continuă pentru un hotel de golf. Hotelul fiea deschis, muzeul nu. RU: Кроме того, я слушал кассету с музыкой Балакирева. Но я оставил Балакирева, чтобы смотреть телевизор. SP: TVE Internacional mostró que el programa Escarabajo Verde, que es un uno de los mejores programas de este canal. Visitaron esta vez el Parque Nacional "Los Gredos" entre Avila y Madrid, donde alguna vez en el pasado vivió el ibex - tal vez viven allí todavía, però con o sin ibex (llamado "capra muntés" en este programa) me parecía un lugar muy hermoso y quizá digno de un viaje. Después he seguido un programa sobre el compositor de Falla, que integró la musica flamenco y otras influencias de musica popolar en sus obras. Hube periodos sin música (¡agradable!) o con música de de Falla (parcialmente agradable o muy agradable, y sin duda relevante), però también episodios con musica fea en inglés sin la minima relevancia para entender el genio de de Falla. Por desgracia, esta es una mala costumbre en muchos programas de televisión - y no sólo las programas de TVE. This morning I started out watching a program on SVT2 (Swedish) with a little Norwegian whipper-snapper who visited little known places in Norway - like a place with a marble column raised for a visit by the Danonorwegian king,but the date for the visit was never engraved on the column, and one theory was that his majesty simply was so royally drunk that he never visited the site. Or maybe he slept through the whole ceremony. Later I watched a Spanish TV program about a natural reserve named "Los Gredos" (between Ávila and Madrid), which looks really impressive with mountains and bird life and places to stay and cultural life in the hamlets in the area. Maybe a place to visit (with a hired car, of course - I'm not a mountaneer now and never was). And afterwards a program about the Spanish composer de Falla, whi integrated flamenco and other popular styles in his music. My only grievance with this program was some episodes with disgusting and irrelevant noise music ... in English as far as I could hear before hitting the 'mute' button. Right now a program has started on Danish DR2 about the effects of your genes versus the things we eat - and it is illustrated through two Spanish twins who actually speak Spanish. But alas, they started out with vicious disgusting background music - and unless that stops I'll listen to something else and just read the subtitles. I have been studying an article in Russian from the magazine /Vokrug Sveta/ (Around the World) about geology, more precisely the effects of erosion through water. And after studying one article from the Romanian site 1001calatorii.com about the Irish hamlet Howth I have been reading a number of other short travelogues - and one positive thing is that this site uses the special Romanian letters. By the way, now the DR2 program has switched to Amsterdam where an elderly lady is interviewed about the 6 month long starvation period there during the second world war. And it is spoken in Dutch so I can keep my Dutch alive. As I wrote a few days ago, the world is so grim that you don't need to invent even more horrors just to please your atrocity hungry readers. Btw. yesterday I saw a TV program (Nat Geo, i presume) about Tabu in the US - with a guy that claimed he more or less had stopped eating food and now just survived on breathing air and spiritual thoughts. Tell that to people who starve... Edited by Iversen on 26 January 2014 at 11:22pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| tarvos Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member China likeapolyglot.wordpr Joined 4713 days ago 5310 posts - 9399 votes Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish | Message 3508 of 3959 26 January 2014 at 10:33pm | IP Logged | ||
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Iversen, nu poți să citești actualități la rețeaua? Dacă am o memorie bună, majoritatea
articolelor în română pe acele website-uri sunt scrise cu diacritice, și poți să-ți găsești ceva fără probleme. Asupra subiecte mai mult personale, am observat și eu că oamenii nu scriu cu diacritice deloc, dar deja am obișnuință de a citi acest fel de lucru - când aveam o prietenă româncă, familia lui a scris mereu fără diacritice. Îmi pare că e numai ceva de normal când vorbim despre comunicație dintre persoane, nu în general... Și eu citesc descopera.ro, probabil că găsești ceva de interesant acolo. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Iversen Super Polyglot Moderator Denmark berejst.dk Joined 6709 days ago 9078 posts - 16473 votes Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian Personal Language Map | Message 3509 of 3959 26 January 2014 at 10:35pm | IP Logged | ||
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DU: Zullen we nog weer mammoeten in de straten rond te lopen zien? "Know How" (nr. 12, 2013) - gekocht voor slechts € 3,99 - discuteert of een aantal uitgestorven dieren kan worden weerhersteld met behulp van bewaard gebleven DNA residuen. De mammoet word ook discuteert (onder de titel "hier komt een olimoet"), en de conclusie is hier dat men een genetisch gemodificeerde moderne olifant zou kunnen wijzigen, maar ondanks Dima en haar goed bewarte vrienden is de DNA immers te oud en versleten. Zou ik graag een Afrikaanse olifant met lang rood haar en oorbeschermers willen zien? Nauwelijks. Eerder en robot-mammoet.
GER: Allerdings weiß ich, dass einige Zooleute den Tarpan und die Auerochsen wieder durch Rückwärtszuchtversuche zu beleben versuchen, und das Ergebnis kann z.B. in Hellabrun München gesehen werden. Aber die Tarpanen sollten wohl eigentlich steife Mähnen haben (wie das Prz.Pferd), und die Auerochsen müssten mindestens anderthalb Mal größer sein um ganz überzeugend zu sein. DU: Het genoemde artikel zegt ook dat de Pyrenese steenbok is uitgestorven - het laatste vrouwtje (met de naam Celia) overleed in 2000. Spaanse wetenschappers hebben 2009 geprobeerd om een kloon (Celia II) te creëren, maar het kalf overleed slechts 7 minuten na de geboorte. I recently bought a magazin called "Know How" in the Netherlands, and herein I have among other interesting things seen an article which discusses whether a number of extinct animals can be 'reconstructed' on the basis of old DNA samples (somewhat like Jurassic park, but with more recent fauna). The section about the mammoth is called "There comes an elemoth" ("Daar komt een olimout") because the most likely scenario would be to create a genetically modified elephant with inbuilt DNA fragments from the amazingly well preserved mammoths from Siberia. But even their DNA is too degenerate, and right now it isn't realistic to make an olimoet. Besides the cloning experiments which have been tried with fresh DNA haven't been too successful. For instance a clone was produced in 2009 with DNA sampled from the last Pyrenean ibex (lonely Celia, deceased in 2000), and a calf was was actually produced, but it died already after 7 minutes after birth due to pulmonary problems. And the pattern with all sorts of fatal defects in clones has also been seen in other cases. With really old DNA the number of fatalities would increase dramatically, so no, I don't expect to se mammoths in the streets soon. RO: De fapt am citat în mod repetat articole de actualitate in limba română în acest fir, dar ar fi necesar o căutare pentru a găsi aceste mesaje. In mod general, dacă eu studiez un articol, vreau neapărat să aibă diacritice acest articol. Daca citesc in mod extensiu nu-i atât de important. De altfel, am impresia că scriere fără diacritice e mai frecvent pe internet decât scriere cu ortografia corectă și completă, cu excepția cazelor unde se aplica o politică editorială pe un site web (ca de pildă în Wikipedia). Edited by Iversen on 27 January 2014 at 10:33am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| tarvos Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member China likeapolyglot.wordpr Joined 4713 days ago 5310 posts - 9399 votes Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish | Message 3510 of 3959 26 January 2014 at 11:09pm | IP Logged | ||
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Sunt de acord cu tine, când scriu mesaje prietenilor și eu nu mă fac griji.
1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Iversen Super Polyglot Moderator Denmark berejst.dk Joined 6709 days ago 9078 posts - 16473 votes Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian Personal Language Map | Message 3511 of 3959 30 January 2014 at 12:33am | IP Logged | ||
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SW: I en annan tråd gavs en länk till en holländsk webbsida om ömsesidig begriplighet, med ett lyssningstest och en lång publikationslista. Hittills har jag läst ett par bitar på engelska, men det finns också artiklar på andra språk. En av artiklarna belyste frågan om "Danish-Swedish asymmetries" - eller med andra ord: varför är det svårare för svenskar att förstå danska än tvärtom? Och den här artikeln ger några bra förklaringar som bygger på ljudstruktur i samband med stavning. Men det blir inte lättare när vi danskare dessutom också pråtar snabbare.
FR: Dans l'autobus-du-boulot-à-la-maison j'ai lu quelques extraits d'une discussion sur le forum hardware.fr. Et non, le thème n'avait rien à fair avait des outils ou des ordinatoeurs, mais au contraire on discutait l'apprentissage des langues. Je l'ai pourtant lu pour étudier le langage des messages, qui pourrait contrabalancer l'écriture dans mes magasines scientifiques et historiques. Et j'ai en effet appris du moins deux mots: "perso" et "exos". Je suis presque sûr que "perso" est une abbréviation des "personellement", et quant à "exos" c'est probablement une abbréviation de "exhaustivement" (malgré l'ortho). Mais à part des mots isolés j'ai aussi pu revoir un recueil de constructions grammaticales de la langue parlée: Par contre perso j'ai rarements bossé la grammaire (dans le sens exos de grammaire) 'tin, il n'y qu'hier que j'ai ouvert un peu mon bouquin sur l'arabe algérien Mais bordel cette leçon, enkuler de rire. -ah ouais? ça a beaucoup picolé? - environ une dizaine de bouteilles de bière Y'a des leçons comme ça PO: Wczoraj studiowałem polskich rzeczowników. Te męskie rzeczowniki mogą być osobiste, animowane lub nie animowane, kobiecy rzeczownik zakończenia zależy od szczepu - kończący się samogłoską lub spółgłoską. Jak zwykle, to trochę skomplikowane. I studied Polish substantives yesterday, and as you might expect this is a somewhat complicated system. In my Slavica grammar there is a long tale about the particularities of pejorative nouns, and there is also a class of nouns called 'facultative personal' - that is: absolutely not personal (and not even living) things which are inflected like words for male persons. Why should anything be simple in Polish? In Russian there are inanimate and inamite nouns, and this distinction has consequences for the form of the accusatives. But the Polish grammar couldn't stick to that, it has three categories of masculine nouns: personal, animate and inanimate. When I had made my short summary of the Polish system (mostly based on the simpler system in my Pons grammar), I got the idea that I wanted to check the other Slavic languages too. The question is: is the accusatives in singular and plural identical to the nominatives or to the genitives, or have they got they own forms? I may have overseen something, but it seems that the system is as follows: Polish: Masculine personal: sing = genitive, plur = genitive Masculine animate: sing = genitive, plur = nominative Masculine inanimate: sing = nominative, plur = nominative Feminine vowel-stems: sing = ..., plur = nominative Feminine consonant-stems: sing = nominative, plur = nominative Neutrum: sing = nominative, plur = nominative Russian: Masculine animate: sing = genitive, plur = nominative Masculine inanimate: sing = nominative, plur = nominative Fem. with -а/-я, anim.: sg. = ..., pl. = gen. Fem. with -а/-я, inanim.: sg. = ..., pl. = nom. Fem. with -ь, anim.: sg. = nom., pl. = gen. Fem. with -ь, inanim.: sg. = nom., pl. = nom. Neutrum: sing = nominative, plur = nominative Czech: Masculine animate: sing = genitive, plur = nominative Masculine inanimate: sing = nominative, plur = nominative Feminine vowel-stems: sing = genitive, plur = nominative Feminine consonant-stems: sing = nominative, plur = nominative Neutrum: sing = nominative, plur = nominative Slovene (NB: has a dual): Masculine animate: sing = genitive, dual = nominative, plur = ... Masculine inanimate: sing = nominative, dual = nominative, plur = ... Feminine: sing = genitive, dual = nominative (& genitive), plur = nominative & genitive Neutrum: sing = nominative, dual = nominative, plur = nominative Serbian: Masculine animate: sing = genitive, plur = ... Masculine inanimate: sing = nominative, plur = ... Feminine vowel-stems: sing = ..., plur = nominative Feminine consonant-stems: sing = nominative, plur = nominative Neutrum: sing = nominative, plur = nominative Bulgarian: has kicked out its case system (apart from remnants of the vocatives). Unfortunately I haven't got grammars for the remaining Slavic languages, but the subtle differences should be obvious already from the ones I have quoted. And the question comes up: how do you remember the different systems? My personal receipt would by a graphical system, maybe with color codes for accusative = nominative, genitive or something different. And whatever the grammars do, I still place the accusative between the nominative and the genitive. Edited by Iversen on 05 February 2014 at 2:26pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Josquin Heptaglot Senior Member Germany Joined 4850 days ago 2266 posts - 3992 votes Speaks: German*, English, French, Latin, Italian, Russian, Swedish Studies: Japanese, Irish, Portuguese, Persian | Message 3512 of 3959 30 January 2014 at 1:25pm | IP Logged | ||
Very interesting comparison! I can't comment on the other Slavic languages, but the above is not correct. It should be as follows: Masc. anim.: sg. = gen., pl = gen. Masc. inanim.: sg. = nom., pl. = nom. Fem. with -а/-я, anim.: sg. = ..., pl. = gen. Fem. with -а/-я, inanim.: sg. = ..., pl. = nom. Fem. with -ь, anim.: sg. = nom., pl. = gen. Fem. with -ь, inanim.: sg. = nom., pl. = nom. Neutr.: sg. = nom., pl. = nom. Concerning the question how to remember this effciently, I'd like to quote an overview Марк has given in this thread: Acc. sing. 1st declension (fem. with -а/-я): -у/-ю 2nd declension (masc. and neuter): anim. masc. = gen., other words = nom. 3rd declendion (fem. with -ь): = nom. Acc. pl. anim. = gen., inanim. = nom. Indeclinable nouns have one form for all cases and numbers. Edited by Josquin on 30 January 2014 at 1:50pm 2 persons have voted this message useful |
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