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 Language Learning Forum : General discussion |  | |
| tarvos Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member China likeapolyglot.wordpr Joined 4705 days ago 5310 posts - 9399 votes  Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish | Message 33 of 74 26 October 2013 at 5:05pm | IP Logged | ||
Language learning is not generalised over all learners to give an optimal strategy. That would only work if your learner is very close to an average learner. The beauty of languages are that they are tools used to, cough, express yourself in the most natural way that is common to both you and the language you are speaking (the tool to do it). So if you happen to travel and like football, then hell's yes football and umbrella should be on your to-learn list. Because it's not what people in general encounter that matters - it is what YOU YOURSELF encounter the most that matters in terms of what you want to say. I know very obscure words in Romanian which I only know because I have an interest in that particular subject, but I can name about three species of birds I think (maybe 2 plus the word for bird). But if I can say the word bird ”pasăre”, then that covers the 5 times in my life I have to name birds in Romanian. Why? Because the one time I've been to a bird zoo the zoo was in Dutch (with inexplicably some signs in Tagalog). In all other instances pasăre will do the job. But if I am going to travel in Russia, you bet your ass I will know the words снег, блять, офигеть, дождь, душно, зонтик, ванная, поезд, проводница, and so on. Because I hear those words all the time. Edited by tarvos on 26 October 2013 at 7:03pm 4 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5428 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 34 of 74 26 October 2013 at 6:53pm | IP Logged | ||
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Sometimes I think we make things more complicated than they really are. I should think that a basic principle we
can all agree on is to learn what is useful for you. If football and umbrella are really important for you to name immediately, then learn them. Nobody has said that you have to learn all the fine nuances of specific words when you first learn them. The simple idea here is that certain words are more common than others. In the western languages we know that a very small number of words make up the bulk of "average" usage. Many of these are function words and others are words with many meanings. It seems to me important that you learn to at least recognize these words. In spoken English nearly every sentence or two will have the verbs have, be or get. Phrasal verbs are extremely common. Shouldn't one learn at least something about them while learning about football and umbrella? Where is the problem? Edited by s_allard on 29 October 2013 at 6:40am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| tarvos Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member China likeapolyglot.wordpr Joined 4705 days ago 5310 posts - 9399 votes Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish | Message 35 of 74 26 October 2013 at 7:02pm | IP Logged | ||
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I don't think anyone goes around not doing that.
3 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6595 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 36 of 74 26 October 2013 at 7:03pm | IP Logged | ||
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The problem is what I've already mentioned. When you barely know what get means and what the prepositions mean, you'll be confused if you try to learn phrasal verbs, other than those that barely count as such (like "get up"). You need to get a feel for both verbs and prepositions, it should make at least some sense to you.
As I said, if you want to say "watch football", you don't need to learn the phrasal verbs with "watch". learn the damn word first. When you've used it 100 times, learn a phrasal verb or two if you want/come across them. (great examples, tarvos!) Edited by Serpent on 26 October 2013 at 7:08pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| tarvos Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member China likeapolyglot.wordpr Joined 4705 days ago 5310 posts - 9399 votes Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish | Message 37 of 74 26 October 2013 at 7:14pm | IP Logged | ||
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Fingerspitzengefühl for all of that just takes a while to develop. I still misuse some
cases and prepositions in Russian because there's always one common expression or other I haven't come across, or one more idiomatic way of formulating something I don't know. That didn't stop me from learning точно, ходить/идти directly but I know more about travel terminology and daily life and curse words because it is what I use. 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| leosmith Senior Member United States Joined 6548 days ago 2365 posts - 3804 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Tagalog | Message 38 of 74 26 October 2013 at 7:20pm | IP Logged | ||
Does this mean you are going to stop doing it yourself? Sometimes when I have insomnia for several days running, I read one of your posts and see irregular usage of low frequency vocabulary. Always kinda wondered why you were doing this, but it works like a charm, so thanks anyhow. 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||
 Iversen Super Polyglot Moderator Denmark berejst.dk Joined 6701 days ago 9078 posts - 16473 votes Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian Personal Language Map | Message 39 of 74 26 October 2013 at 10:09pm | IP Logged | ||
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I can't see why a person who clearly masters a language well enough to use rare and precious words correctly should avoid them. As I have understood the original question, it referred to the situation of intermediate language learners who can speak sensibly when they stick to simple constructions and vocabulary they know well, but who almost certainly will produce nonsens or come to a standstill if they try constructions and vocabulary beyond their capabilities. Edited by Iversen on 26 October 2013 at 11:15pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5428 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 40 of 74 26 October 2013 at 10:35pm | IP Logged | ||
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I think the @iversen has paraphrased the OP very well. If you master sophisticated language, you should use it. The
problem is that not everybody understands sophisticated language usage. Here at HTLAL we must acknowledge that not everybody is a native speaker and writer of English. So, we tend to use rather simple language. This is not an academic site. When I write here, it's a far cry from what I do when I write for an academic journal. If anybody finds my writing soporific, wait till they read one of my articles. But the real problem we are talking about is what happens when people want to talk in a sophisticated manner but don't have the language tools to do so. This is where the gibberish appears and things fall apart Edited by s_allard on 26 October 2013 at 10:39pm 1 person has voted this message useful |
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