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| montmorency Diglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 4829 days ago 2371 posts - 3676 votes  Speaks: English*, German Studies: Danish, Welsh | Message 25 of 133 19 July 2012 at 10:36pm | IP Logged | ||
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2012-07-19 Donnerstag|Torsdag
Deutsch Finished listening to the rest of "Der Tod in Venedig", using what I am calling for now, my intense listening method. I listen only for sound primarily. Sometimes I visualise the spelling; mostly I don't. I close my eyes to eliminate visual distraction. German is fortunately almost always nicely enunciated, especially in this kind of format, so you don't have to "hunt" for the words as you might in other languages. I almost never fail to recognise a word; just occasionally I'll not be sure. This is not to say that I understand every word. Of course I don't. But it's surprising; even though I am listening for sound and not meaning in this mode, I have actually found that I'm picking up the meaning better than in some other modes. I think it is because I'm actively resisting all forms of distraction in order to concentrate on the sound alone. Iversen talks about something a little bit similar in part of one of his guides, but he actually does it differently. There is more than one way of peeling an orange. (As a cat lover, I don't like to use the "cat" metaphor! :) ). I don't stop to write down words (and I certainly don't stop to look up words). I don't stop for anything unless someone wants to talk to me, or the phone or doorbell rings or something. (Or one of the cats is demanding food; like now ...). ... ... ... (anyone fluent in Cat? one of our cats is a real chatterbox, but she has to put up with English from me, which she does with good humoured tolerance). Well, I was going on to say that while doing this intense reading, I don't make any effort to memorise words to look up later. I feel that even the effort of doing that would distract me from listening. However, I still do remember some words to look up, and I try to do this right away. This was actually a short book - it's only a short story. So it's been easy to do this intense listening for it. It might not be so easy to do it for a long book. On the other hand, this story is multi-layered, with some difficult language, and lots of metaphors and classical references which I don't even necessarily get in the English versions, unless they are spelled out in the notes. That being the case, it's obviously a good candidate for intense listening. Danish None so far today, but I hope to watch the latest episode of Borgen via iPlayer, if my internet connection co-operates. ... ...Later... Now watched it. A good episode, but had to watch it in streaming mode - for some reason could not download it. Because of internet delays it means the subtitles often don't correspond with the audio. For whatever reason, I didn't pick up as many words in this episode :-( There was also a lot of English spoken, as it's about the visit from the leader of a former Soviet state, and they used English as a lingua franca. It's interesting that (from my perspective as an Englishman), Sidse Babette Knudsen (who plays the PM) speaks English with very little trace of a non-English accent, whereas Birgitte Hjort Sorensen who plays the young reporter Katrine, speaks with a pronounced American accent - perhaps an American would hear this as "accent-free". I wonder if the difference relates to the difference in their ages? I'd guess "Katrine" is at least 10 years younger; probably more. Edit: Well, it seems that Sorensen is indeed about 14 years younger, but Knudsen spent what looks like 2 years in New York, and Sorensen has worked in England. So, is it just the age that might have made a difference? Edited by montmorency on 20 July 2012 at 12:42am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Danac Diglot Senior Member Denmark Joined 5349 days ago 162 posts - 257 votes Speaks: Danish*, English Studies: German, Serbo-Croatian, French, Russian, Esperanto | Message 26 of 133 20 July 2012 at 4:09pm | IP Logged | ||
Making grand, general statements is always a bit dangerous, but there's not necessarily anything certain to say about which person uses which accent. If we base it on the input we get from TV and movies, American English would probably be in the lead, but there's still a tendency for teachers to push British English in education. The perception of each accent is also a bit different: American English is more hip, current and "happening", whereas British English is seen to be more conservative and old-fashioned, but also more cultured. Of course, this is a very rough, and also not necessarily true, picture. As for my personal experience, a friend of mine once told me that RP was the standard among Danish students studying English at the university level. Again, this is probably more a manifestation of some people's preconceptions of what speaking in a certain accent means than a genuine representation of the state of different English accents in Denmark. I'd say that American English is just as prevalent among young Danes as British due to the amount of input we get. It probably changes with age, and as I mentioned, all of my English teachers have tried to teach us more British English than American. I'm sure British English has also been the main accent taught in schools and onwards since about the post WW2 era. Not to mention, many Danes, especially older people, really don't have the legendary English language skills that we are attributed by some people, and of course, their accent is more Danish than British or American. Edited by Danac on 20 July 2012 at 4:11pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| montmorency Diglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 4829 days ago 2371 posts - 3676 votes Speaks: English*, German Studies: Danish, Welsh | Message 27 of 133 22 July 2012 at 1:13am | IP Logged | ||
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@Danac: Many thanks. Nice to get a Danish perspective.
I was rather amazed by how "English" sounding Sidse Babette Knudsen sounded, at least initially. I supposed if one went in for a critical analysis, one would find clues, but superficially anyway, if she had been acting in something on UK-produced TV, it would have been hard for people to guess where she came from. Interestingly, in last weekend's edition of the British version of Wallander, on BBC TV, we had an appearance from Søren Malling. He was playing the Latvian policeman from the story "Dogs of Riga". His English was very fluent of course, but in that case he was meant to have an accent of some sort, so this worked very well. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| montmorency Diglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 4829 days ago 2371 posts - 3676 votes Speaks: English*, German Studies: Danish, Welsh | Message 28 of 133 22 July 2012 at 2:12am | IP Logged | ||
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2012-07-20-21 Freitag-Samstag|Sonnabend|Fredag-Lørdag
Dansk I completed the remaining audio pieces on the TYSCD CDs, which does not mean I have fully worked through the book. Although all the dialogues on the CDs are in the book, not all the dialogues in the book are on the CDs. It would be good if they could offer the additional dialogues on CD as an add-on. I think I am going to go back make a concerted attempt to learn all the vocabulary in the book wordlist-style, and then go through all the CD dialogues again. (I've already been through them all several times, although sometimes not paying full attention). I'll then see if I can tackle the dialogues that are only in the book (and not on CD) on my own, and see how I get on. It is not perhaps as ambitious as it sounds to learn all the vocab in the book. For a start, as Prof. Arguelles points out in one of his videos, there isn't as much vocab in modern TYS as there was in the traditional ones. Also in Danish, one is getting a lot of clues via English, and I can also get them via German. One sometimes has to look at the Danish words a bit "sideways" (as it were) to see the relationship, but once it hits you, it's obvious. I just chose a page at random with a vocabulary list, and in well over half of those words would you be able to guess at their meaning from either English or German. That might not be representative, but it's at least encouraging. That's from the written language, but sometimes you get more of a clue from the spokem language. e.g. "Værsgo" = "here you are", reminds me of "there you go", which is almost the same. "meget" = "very", reminds me of "mighty" (which can be used colloqually to mean "very", e.g. "I'm mighty hungry". And a word like "båd" sounds more like "boat" than it looks like it. Deutsch I finished both of my copies of translations of "Death in Venice", one by David Luke (which is from 1988, and not earlier, as I said before), and the other by Stanley Appelbaum (1995). To be honest, I'm not seeing many differences, except that Appelbaum does have a few American usages, which is fair enough, as it was published for the American market. He does say he was aiming for a more literal translation though, which is probably the case, although as he says in the notes, a truly literal translation of a story like this would be largely gibberish in English. I'll try to include more detail of the notes by both of them in a later update to this log, as I think people might be interested. I'm now reading the 2nd translation I have of "Irrungen Wirrungen", this one by Peter James Bowman (as "On Tangled Paths)". One difference that I appreciate is that the dialogue of the ordinary Berliners is less obviously "Cockneyfied", which I found a bit of a distraction in the Derek Bowman translation. Of course we understand that the ordinary people will not be speaking like the nobility (this is essentially a story of love across the class barrier), but I think we can use our imagination sufficiently about that, without it having to be made so glaringly obvious. I appreciate that Berlinerish is (was) probably very analogous to Cockney, although it is probably almost impossible to translate in any meaningful way. I will also listen to the audiobook for "Irrungen Wirrungen", either after finishing the translation, or (depending on how I feel) after every few chapters of reading, listen to the same chapters in audio, i.e. not L-R-ing as such, but reading the translation, followed by "intense listening" of the German. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ By chance I found myself listening to some French. My latest rentals from Lovefilm happened to be 2 films by Joseph Losey, (both with Dirk Bogarde and screenplay by Harold Pinter), "The Servant" (1963) and "Accident" (1967). The latter included a documentary about Losey made in France and was in a mixture of subtitled French and English. Both are great films, by the way, and I highly recommend them. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| montmorency Diglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 4829 days ago 2371 posts - 3676 votes Speaks: English*, German Studies: Danish, Welsh | Message 29 of 133 24 July 2012 at 1:21am | IP Logged | ||
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2012-07-22-23 Sonntag-Montag|Søndag-Mandag
Deutsch Spent a few hours yesterday helping my adult son (at his request) go through some Michel Thomas. He did German at school (without great enthusiasm, it must be said), and is trying to revive it, for short-lived work purposes, via a crash course in MT, plus a few little pointers from me. In fact, if his plans come to fruition, it will actually be another language that will be more useful, but I won't say any more about that now, in case I "jinx" him! I was pleasantly surprised how much he was remembering, both from school, and from the stuff he'd done recently. Plus it was interesting to watch someone else go through the learning process. I'm coming towards the end of the "Irrungen Wirrungen" audiobook, and the translation by Peter James Bowman. I read the translation before I listen, but not always immediately before. It's only a short book, and I've already read the other translation, so I don't have much trouble understanding it, even if I don't know every German word. The language is definitely more straightforward than "Death in Venice", and also more straightforward than some other Fontane novels. It has a lot of dialogue in it, which helps, and there is a pretty clear narrative structure (with some small flashbacks, which are in no way confusing, fortunately). It would be easy to turn it into a film or a radio play. But to say it was a simple book would be to undersell it. In fact I think it is very cleverly structured. Everything happens for a reason. As the notes point out, events take place in a distinct time period, and in real locations. Fontane spent time at several of the locations to get them just right, and various real people are mentioned in passing, although the main characters are fictitious. (Although apparently, after publication, Fontane was embarrassed to receive a visit from an irate woman who claimed that it was about her!). When the story was serialised, Prussian society professed itself to be shocked, even though it described a sequence of events that was absolutely typical in that society. When it was published in book form, Fontane cannily made sure that the press that was likely to be sympathetic received advance copies, and the hostile press didn't, and he managed to get lots of good reviews, and the book became a hit. Someone described Theodor Fontane as the Jane Austen of German literature. I haven't read any Jane Austen (I'm ashamed to say), so I cannot say how true that is, but I can see some similarities to Anthony Trollope. Edit Just found an audiobook of "Pride and Prejudice" in German. Might be a pretty cool way of getting into Jane Austen after all these years! I seem to remember hearing that she is good on dialogue, as is Fontane, which should hopefully help. Dansk Listened to some dr.dk podcasts fairly randomly, just to keep my ear in (sort of). Edited by montmorency on 25 July 2012 at 2:40am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| montmorency Diglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 4829 days ago 2371 posts - 3676 votes Speaks: English*, German Studies: Danish, Welsh | Message 30 of 133 24 July 2012 at 8:32pm | IP Logged | ||
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2012-07-24 Dienstag|Tirsdag
Deutsch Finished reading the Peter James Bowman translation of "Irrungen, Wirrungen" (as "On Tangled Paths"), and the audiobook. I think the audiobook was read by Gert Westphal, who also read the audiobook of "Buddenbrooks" that I have. At least his rolling "R"s sound the same. I looked up Westphal, and he was born in Dresden. Do they roll their "R"s in Dresden? There again, he seems to have moved around a lot (and was in West Germany after the war, and died in Switzerland). He died in 2002, and this book appears to date from 2004, but that doesn't necessarily signify. It might have been a reissue, for example. It may also have been originally a radio broadcast, as for the 1st 2 chapters, you can hear an audience responding. You don't hear them after that, but he makes asides, at the beginning and end of each chapter, which makes me think it wasn't a studio recording. Anyway, it's quite an enjoyable listen. Next on the German list is probably "Unwiederbringlich", for which I have German text and a modern-ish translation, and now I have the audiobook. Dansk I did some vocabulary-learning via wordlist, going back to words in the 1st part of the book. I worked out that there are approximately 1,500 Danish words in the vocabulary pages towards the back. If I were to do 3 groups of 7 per day, i.e. 21, it would take about 2½ months to learn them all. Being generous and saying that only 1000 are totally new words (not helped by English, German, or already known), that would bring it down to about 7 weeks I think. hm... I might try the approach of learning all words mentioned in one chapter per day. This would be easy for the early chapters, as I know a lot of those now, but it would get harder quite quickly, I think. I am not certain whether the vocabulary at the back only covers words already included in the preceding chapters, or has additional words. I suppose when I think I know all the words mentioned in the chapters, I just have to go down the list of words at the back and see if and where I trip over. Edited by montmorency on 25 July 2012 at 2:06am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| montmorency Diglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 4829 days ago 2371 posts - 3676 votes Speaks: English*, German Studies: Danish, Welsh | Message 31 of 133 26 July 2012 at 12:18am | IP Logged | ||
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2012-07-25 Mittwoch|Onsdag
Deutsch I have been continuing reading my translation of "Unwiederbringlich", and in between, listening to chapters of the corresponding audiobook. Mostly, I was reading first, and then intensely listening, but I also did some "proper" L-R, listening to the German while reading the English. (Perhaps "proper" LR would involve parallel texts, which I don't currently have for this. I don't rule that out, but it's not what I'm using for now). It worked up to a point. The point at which I just carried on reading the English and "tuned out" the German. Others have warned of this. I acknowledge that it's a risk in my case. I will keep experimenting. I think it depends entirely on the difficulty of the text, with respect to the individual reader. I suppose I am slightly more visual than aural, or maybe it's just that my native language will always take precedence. As I have long suspected, not only is there more than one way to do "L-R", there is more than one way for any given individual to do it,even with the same work, both aural and literal. In other words: keep experimenting. It's what I am doing, anyway. And be very clear about what you are hoping to achieve from each "session". I also tried this with a couple of chapters of "Effi Briest", which I know quite well by now, using a good translation, and a new (to me) audiobook I have acquired. The results were pretty much the same as with the other book. The lesson for me is, to give yourself time, and do it several ways. Dansk Some long overdue revision of my wordlist book. I am essentially returning to the first part of the TYS book, vocabulary-wise. I gave myself a shock, before realising that I had started recording words from the end of the book, at the beginning of my wordlist book, for some reason. When I look more carefully at the words from the beginning of the book, I know rather more of them, but not as many as I should do :-( And obvious point is that one remembers more words in context than out of it. In a short while, the next episode of "Borgen", on BBC 4. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| montmorency Diglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 4829 days ago 2371 posts - 3676 votes Speaks: English*, German Studies: Danish, Welsh | Message 32 of 133 26 July 2012 at 11:01pm | IP Logged | ||
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2012-07-26 Donnerstag | Torsdag
Deutsch It is interesting that, while many of Fontane's books are about Prussia, "Unwiederbringlich" is set in Schleswig-Holstein, and in an earlier period, before German unity, and before Prussian hegemony over the region was guaranteed. Fontane seems to have been a qualified admirer of Prussia in earlier years, but later, grew to distance himself from its expansionist tendencies, and, according to some notes, put his hopes in the working classes. This is clear from "Irrungen, Wirrungen", which has a working class heroine, and portrays the working class "extras" in a sympathetic light. "Unwiederbringlich" however, starts off among the aristocracy and royalty, so we shall have to see how it progresses. At where I have got to at the moment, the hero(?), Count Holk, has got to Copenhagen. Could he speak Danish, we ask ourselves? He was seen earlier apparently reading a Danish newspaper, so perhaps, yes... In a large bookshop (with a good-ish language department), in my neighbouring city of Christminster, I managed to find a cheap 2nd-hand edition of "Irrungen, Wirrungen" today, in good condition (with "free" pencil annotations :-) ), and another good quality, 2nd-hand book, which I may mention later. It's an English classic, for which I now have the German translation in audiobook form (which also came with a German text e-book), and it sounds very promising indeed. But that's a treat for later. Edited by montmorency on 27 July 2012 at 11:16pm 1 person has voted this message useful |
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