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| montmorency Diglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 4829 days ago 2371 posts - 3676 votes  Speaks: English*, German Studies: Danish, Welsh | Message 41 of 133 12 August 2012 at 10:43pm | IP Logged |
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2012-08-02 Donnerstag?Torsdag
Dansk Watched Borgen 8/10 in iplayer. Was pleased how many words I recognised. I recognised several past tenses from context, but was surprised how they sounded e.g. "sagd" = "said". I've seen this in the book, but don't remember anyone saying on the CDs. Must revisit the CDs and check. But Danish pronunciation is full of surprises :-) Birgitte and Philip at one stage were both using the word "glad" very clearly (which means roughly the same as in English I think). The "d" is supposed to sound like a "th" sound, but yet again was sounding just like an "l" to me. (Although as Fru Ellwood kindly pointed out, perhaps the problem is my ears.... mange tak for det! :-) ). Deutsch Did stages 1-2 on chapter 16 of "Unwiederbringlich", and interestingly a Danish (possibly old-Danish) word cropped up: "Dyveke" which apparently means "little turtle dove". It was the pseudonym of a mistress of a king back in the 1600s. Somewhere in the book, Fontane has one of his characters say that the Copenhageners of the time (when the action of the book is taking place - around 1860) regarded themselves as the Parisiens of the north. Read the German text of the same chapter in bed, until too tired. Not my currently normal order of doing things, but a pragmatic choice. Interesting to see a reference to Struensee (as a historical figure at the time of the action of the book), who was the hero of "En kongelig affære|A Royal Affair", the Danish film we saw at the cinema the other week, (Played by Mads Mikelsen of course; I think there is a law in Denmark that he gets the good-looking parts :-) ). HTLAL emk has received a reply from Francois who is now looking at the problem. 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| montmorency Diglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 4829 days ago 2371 posts - 3676 votes Speaks: English*, German Studies: Danish, Welsh | Message 42 of 133 12 August 2012 at 10:45pm | IP Logged |
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u]2012-08-04 Freitag|Fredag
HTLAL HTLAL seems to be back, which is excellent news. But I hope the joy of getting it back doesn't mean people forget the lessons which have been learned (one hopes). And the need for a new approach from the point of view of improving its performance, and adding enhancements, not to mention fixing bugs. One person on their own cannot run a system with this many users and this much data, no matter how tempting having a committee of one can be. ... Later Unfortunately, it got attacked again after about 2 hours. Eventually we got word via emk that Francois was going to have to take a much deeper look at things, and we're probably looking at a 2-day outage, at least. Deutsch Did stages 3-4 of chapter 16 of "Unwiederbringlich" (listen in German while reading the English, then read and mark German text). 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| montmorency Diglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 4829 days ago 2371 posts - 3676 votes Speaks: English*, German Studies: Danish, Welsh | Message 43 of 133 12 August 2012 at 10:46pm | IP Logged |
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2012-08-04 Samstag|Sonnabend|Lørdag
We drove to North Wales on a family visit. I elected to be passenger on the way up, and so was able to read chapter 17 of "Unwiederbringlich" in English, and then in German. I was pleased to remember a few Welsh words out of the blue, e.g. "coed"="forest" or "wood", as in Betys y Coed. My wife noticed that (speed) humps in the road were marked "humpiae", which she said would be pronounced "himp-ee-eye" (she lived in Wales in primary school years and learned Welsh at school - she's forgotten a lot, but not the pronunciation). Back late. This all reminded me how easy it was for (at least a lot of) English people to travel to another country and practice a 2nd language among native speakers if they wanted to, without having to worry about passports, currency, etc. Of course, they have to find an area where Welsh is reasonably widely spoken, but they can be found. Mostly in the north, but there are Welsh speakers in the south as well. Because of being out all day, I missed my fix of "Wallander" on BBC4. This would have been part 2 of "Sidetracked", with Rolf Lassgård. Not Danish of course, but I can regognise or guess quite a few words usually. Fortunately, I should be able to watch it on iPlayer. 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| montmorency Diglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 4829 days ago 2371 posts - 3676 votes Speaks: English*, German Studies: Danish, Welsh | Message 44 of 133 12 August 2012 at 10:49pm | IP Logged |
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2012-08-05 Sonntag|Søndag
Completed chapters 17 and 18 of "Unwiederbringlich", with all 4 steps (if not all in the usual order), and some was with the additional "5th step", i.e. both listening to and reading the German. Of course this all takes a bit longer, but I get to know the book well, and get more out of it. I don't think I could do it with all or any books, but this one carries my interest sufficiently to stand it. I think on the whole, this method is better than reading it all the way through for each step, rather than break it up into chapters, although it does mean you don't get the flow of the book as a whole in a relatively short time. Of course I can always come back and read it all in one go at some later time, which I almost certainly will do, but not too soon. Well, poor old Holk, after being needled ("Stacheleien") by his wife while at home, is now being needled from home, by letter. In this mean time, he is tempted by two beautiful young women, one the daughter of his landlady (Brigitte Hansen), and the other, a courtier of the princess (Ebba Rosenberg). The later is now being openly flirtatious with him, toying with him, and I think testing him. Both she and the Princess know that he is a good, but weak man, and of course, so does his wife. His wife also knows about the two young women in Copenhagen, and what she further guesses is worse than what she knows. The consequences seem fairly inevitable, and in modern life, are common enough I suppose. At that time in that society, it may have been common, but it wasn't often admitted to. Fontane had the courage to write about it, as he had about other things that Prussian society would rather sweep under the carpet. I was interested that in one letter, Countess Holk (Christine), writes that Strehlke, the tutor of their son, would have been better if he had studied in Halle, rather than Jena, although in another part of the letter, she praises the Thuringian approach to education. She then makes some barbed reference to the effect of Jena. I think this is (from the pious Christine) a reference to religous matters. I'll have to read the various notes again, but I suppose they weren't quite "sound" enough in Jena on religious matters, in Christine's Weltanschauung. Well, I have a particular fondness for Jena, having been there quite a bit, off and on, since the early 2000s, so I always take notice when it (or Thuringen) gets a mention. All I know about the religion of this area is that Luther was pretty strong there (in Thuringen, not necessarily Jena itself) - he was originally a monk in Erfurt, and translated the New Testament in Eisenach (in the Wartburg), and Protestantism is still much stronger than Catholicism in this part of Germany, although there are some small Catholic enclaves I believe. I know nothing about the finer disctinctions within German Protestantism, although Christine is a Moravian (or was brought up by them), whatever that may be. Pretty strict, judging by the rather austere Christine. Holk on the other hand, is (or would like to be) "a bit of a lad", and likes a laugh and a joke, and probably a drink, and as we are soon to find out, has an eye for the fair sex when let off the leash. BTW, I have belatedly realised that "am anderen Tag" means "the next day", and not "the other day" which would be "neulich", or "kürzlich". (*blush* - beware of falsche Freunden). Fontane wrote "am anderen Tage", using the old form of the dative noun, only now seen in phrases like "zu Hause". I think it's rather elegant myself, but I know I wouldn't get away with writing it. 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| montmorency Diglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 4829 days ago 2371 posts - 3676 votes Speaks: English*, German Studies: Danish, Welsh | Message 45 of 133 12 August 2012 at 10:52pm | IP Logged |
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2012-08-06 Montag|Mandag
HTLAL Now appears to be back and stable. Hooray! Dansk Vocab for chapter 4 of TYSCD. Deutsch Chapter 19 of "Unwiederbringlich", steps 1 & 4 (but will repeat 4 after 2 & 3 done, and maybe "5"). A few distractions! But now, the Princess and her entourage (which has to include Holk) is leaving Copenhagen for Frederiksborg, a castle in a seemingly remote but starkly beautiful area.Holk and Ebba are to be sleeping in the same tower! This is the Princess's idea.......but is it wise? 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| montmorency Diglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 4829 days ago 2371 posts - 3676 votes Speaks: English*, German Studies: Danish, Welsh | Message 46 of 133 12 August 2012 at 10:53pm | IP Logged |
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2012-08-07 Dienstag|Tirsdag
(HTLAL seems to be holding up). Dansk Vocab for chapter 5 of TYSCD. Deutsch Chapter 19 of "Unwiederbringlich", steps 2 & 3. 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| montmorency Diglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 4829 days ago 2371 posts - 3676 votes Speaks: English*, German Studies: Danish, Welsh | Message 47 of 133 12 August 2012 at 10:57pm | IP Logged |
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2012-08-08 Mittwoch|Onsdag
Deutsch Completed chapter 20 "Unwiederbringlich", all stages. They have settled into Frederiksborg now. Ebba and Pentz are ragging Holk about the name "Brigitte", but he seems immune to that now, although not from the charms of Ebba... The L-R process (when listening to the German while reading the English) is working quite well now, provided I can try to keep the pace of listening and reading almost in exact synchronisation; that seems to be better than leaving the reading until slightly later. This usually works well because Helen Chambers' translation is pretty close to the German most of the time. From time to time this isn't possible, and then you just have to compromise. It's not too much of a problem. The review of the German text at the end is still finding plenty of words I either still don't really know, or I'm not entirely comfortable with. I underline them all, but I don't put them all in my word lists. I think it would take too long. I hope that if I read enough Fontane (which I plan to do), they will probably crop up again, and one way or another, I will pick them up. And I can always re-read the book at some later stage. The "completist" side of my nature wants me to try to know every single word in the book (something teachers usually tell you not to try to do), but I know it's not realistically possible, not yet, anyway. Who knows what is possible with much more exposure? That's what this process is partly about. Also listened to a couple of chapters of the audiobook to Harry Potter 5. I suppose the language is growing slightly more difficult. At any rate, I managed to garner some useful vocabulary for my word lists, and a nice phrase: "jemandem den Laufpass geben" - to give someone their marching orders, or more colloquially, the elbow. Or as in this case, to dump someone (a girlfriend or boyfriend - this was Ginny talking). Edited by montmorency on 12 August 2012 at 10:58pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| montmorency Diglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 4829 days ago 2371 posts - 3676 votes Speaks: English*, German Studies: Danish, Welsh | Message 48 of 133 12 August 2012 at 11:07pm | IP Logged |
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2012-08-09-10 Donnerstag-Freitag|Torsdag-Fredag
HTAL Seems to have remained stable. There was a single posting ("test") from FX at one point, and there was a hope of future messages, but at the time of typing this, none had appeared. It is not really satisfactory having an "invisible" admin. He should be in regular contact with the moderators at least, and should have a backup admin. I don't accept the "he's very busy" line. He needs to learn how to delegate. I'm not unsympathetic, but he is obviously a very capable man, and part of that means recognising that it's not humanly possible for one person to do everything all of the time, and make the necessary arrangements. I seriously considered going "pro" as a vote of confidence in FX and HTAL (and hopefully to try to encourage him), and in fact tried to do so, but had problems trying to pay by Paypal (which I don't often use). I'm not sure where the problem lay, but I'll leave it for now. dansk Vocabulary work up to and including Chapter 6. I must remember to watch "Borgen" (and "Wallander") on iPlayer before they disappear. I need to give my Danish a bit of a turbo-boost though. I've been too engrossed in Fontane, and just occasionally "real life" :-) Later Watched Borgen (9/10). It's sad to see Philip and Birgitte's marriage breaking down (like Holk and Christine's in "Unwiederbringlich", although Philip and Birgitte were far better suited). Although I am disappointed in the degree of ruthlessness that has developed in both of them. If my wife were the prime minister, I'd be quite happy to step back and live life in the background, having the occasional tipple with my friends, smiling benignly for the cameras occasionally, and being quite happy to let her take the limelight. I recognised quite a few words, but continue to be bemused by Danish pronunciation, which sometimes is what you think it will be, and sometimes is somewhere up in the clouds. I dare say I will get used to it in an aeon or two. Deutsch Completed Chapter 21 of "Unwiederbringlich" using my 4-step (or 4 repetitions, but sometimes 5) approach. I might do Chapter 22 slightly differently, but we'll see, I listened to a bit of Harry Potter 3, after Serpent mentioned dodgy computer voices being used (e.g. Sirius). Sadly true, but the "normal" voice of Peter Pettigrew in Ch.19 is even worse! Horribly over-acted. They should know that less is more. I think sometimes it's overdone because it's a "children's book". Well it's true that I'm definitely not the target audience of this particular edition of this particular book, so perhaps I should not complain, and the rest of the chapter sounded OK. Later did Ch.22 of "Unwiederbringlich", first listening to German while reading English, then listening to German while reading German (and underlining uncertain or interesting words). It worked quite well, despite having not read the chapter before in English. Although I think multiple repetitions can be useful, I was finding the relatively slow progress a bit frustrating after a while, and I do want to finish this book! :-) The key thing is, for obvious reasons, how close any given German sentence is to the same sentence in English. For this chapter there were few, if any problems of that nature. With some of Fontane's longer sentences, then you can be thrown if you are not careful. Fortunately, he is a great writer of dialogue, and that is almost always close enough to keep you in sync, or if you were out of sync, you give you a homing-in point to get back to. In addition, the chapters are not excessively long, and they are of roughly equal length. Theodor, God bless you. You were a real pro! A word on word-lists I've tended to modify my WL groups from 7 down to 5 or 6, originally by accident, but I thought smaller groups worked better. & is supposed to be the maximum, but 5-7 is within Iversen's guidelines. I do deviate from him in certain details, but I stick to the basic principles. In particular, I have taken on board what he says about learning in context and guessing, etc. That can get you so far, but at some point, it's really better to use a dictionary (paper or electronic), and probably a bilingual one (although that is a point of frequent debate). I've often guessed wrong, even when the context is reasonably clear. So care is needed. Although he uses it in a different context, I'd borrow Iversen's "bloodhound" analogy for meaning as well. As far as meaning of a text is concerned, my first instinct is to hunt out the meaning (like a tenacious bloodhound) of every word and phrase (even if that's not what teachers tell you to do). If I know I'm coming back to the text, or if it's not that important, or if I'm just "reading for gist", then I'll let it go, but ultimately, I'd like to know the meaning (including secondary meanings) of every jot and tittle. This can slow you down ... Edited by montmorency on 12 August 2012 at 11:09pm 1 person has voted this message useful |
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