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 Language Learning Forum : Language Learning Log |  | |
| tricoteuse Pentaglot Senior Member Norway littlang.blogspot.co Joined 6679 days ago 745 posts - 845 votes  Speaks: Swedish*, Norwegian, EnglishC1, Russian, French Studies: Ukrainian, Bulgarian | Message 9 of 58 29 May 2013 at 10:14am | IP Logged | ||
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Kartof, I do have some questions! Well, only one that I can remember now. Are these two constructions identical in meaning, or are they used differently? (I hope they are correct)
Роботата им Тяхната робота ---- I haven't been all lazy lately, but I feel an obligation to focus on Russian (exam on the 3rd!) and on linguistics. I'm utterly crap at linguistics, which is unfortunate since 1) I'm gonna start that job on a linguistics project at the university soon, 2) I have to write a scientific article with my master thesis research results, 3) I am participating at a corpus language study conference with my supervisor in August, talking about generic referents in OCS and Ancient Greek and how we used corpus methods to study these and 4) I think I'm going to apply for a PhD-program for next year. Being this crappy at linguistic terminology and linguistic concepts is just not an option, so I have to do some self-study. Therefore, I'm trying to read more scientific articles in my field, I've ordered a book that looks promising (Analyzing grammar) and I've got some pdf's I'm looking at. Due to me being so bad at this stuff, the reading is pretty slow. I read one article that was interesting though, and easy enough to understand, Genitive‐accusative and possessive adjective in Old East Slavic by Elena Bratishenko. Next up is Why Russian Semi-Predicative Items Always Agree by Nerea Madariaga. When I'm not doing that, translating random stuff or reading Слово живое и мёртвое, I'm reading a Bulgarian grammar book. It's really good, but I'm going to borrow another one today by a Norwegian linguist (who I saw at a seminar recently and who was both funny and obviously very skilled, so I'm looking forward to reading his book!) to read once I finish the first. The Bulgarian possessive system is AWESOME. Reading the first part of the book was a pretty easy deal because it's mostly morphology and such, but now I sense there will soon be some verbs and other fascinating stuff! The problem with the book is that it's kind of "brief" (it's in the title really: Short grammar of Bulgarian for English speaking learners) and it presents half a dozen possessive systems (full and short form of pronouns in different positions), without actually making it very clear if there IS a difference between them or not. I think I figured out the се/си difference on my own, but we'll see. Nonetheless, really fascinating stuff. I've stared a small ANKI deck for Bulgarian, but I'm taking it slow. This may be true love. 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Kartof Bilingual Triglot Senior Member United States Joined 5067 days ago 391 posts - 550 votes Speaks: English*, Bulgarian*, Spanish Studies: Danish | Message 10 of 58 05 June 2013 at 4:45am | IP Logged | ||
The correct spellings are "Работата им" and "Тяхната работа" (I assume you meant to say "Their work"). They both have the same meaning and as you stated further down in your post they are the long and short possessive forms. The main difference between the two constructions is in what they stress. The first is more neutral and more likely to be used in any given sentence. The second stresses that the "work" in question is being done by "them" and by no one else. It also infuses slightly more emotion and attention into the construction. I'll give you some examples: Работата им беше лесна. - Their work was easy. *Edit* I just realized that this sentence above can be read one of two ways, "Their work was easy" or "The work was easy for them". The first uses the genitive "им" while the second uses the dative "им". Of course you're asking about the genitive "им", in case that were to cause some confusion. Няма да оценя тяхната работа. - I won't judge their work (but I have judged or will judge others' work/because I refuse to). The long form is also used for comparisons between subjects: Тяхната работа беше сложна но моята работа беше по-сложна. - Their work was complicated but my work was more complicated. ...and the long form possessive adjective can become a possessive pronoun when you drop the noun: Моята работа беше сложна но тяхната беше по-сложна. - My work was complicated but theirs was more complicated. I am glad you find this interesting and I hope my examples aren't too advanced! Feel free to ask any more questions; explaining this stuff is enjoyable for me haha Edited by Kartof on 05 June 2013 at 4:49am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| tricoteuse Pentaglot Senior Member Norway littlang.blogspot.co Joined 6679 days ago 745 posts - 845 votes Speaks: Swedish*, Norwegian, EnglishC1, Russian, French Studies: Ukrainian, Bulgarian | Message 11 of 58 19 June 2013 at 10:33am | IP Logged | ||
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Aaah, it's alive! It's alive!
Whatever did happen? Same old, work and sunshine. I kind of forgot about ANKI as soon as my Russian exam was over. They were kind enough to give me an A (didn't expect one honestly), so I'm very glad that my strategy of "don't study for the test because I won't get an A anyway" worked brilliantly. I'm getting back to dear ANKI though, and - I started reading Twilight! The choice is excellent - there are no complex sentences in the book! Ok, I've only read four pages or so so far, but it's pretty smooth. I got to page 150 or so in my grammar book before starting, and I'm very glad I decided to go hardcore on the grammar aspect. I looked at the first page of Twilight before starting to read the grammar book like a month ago, and it was tough. I looked at it again now, and it wasn't difficult at all. It's all those verbal forms that trick you up. Naturally, being at page 150 meant I hadn't seen them all yet, and of course the first thing to appear was a future in the past that I had no clue about. Now I am so much the wiser. I found myself some more books as well. As everyone knows, when the going is slow, getting even more books always helps. Through a review of my grammar book on Goodreads I found another book that I got interested in, "Reading Bulgarian through Russian", and while I was at the Uni library to get that one, I happened to also get "Историческа граматика на българския език". Kartof: thank you for your explanation! Perfectly understandable :) 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Марк Senior Member Russian Federation Joined 5057 days ago 2096 posts - 2972 votes Speaks: Russian* | Message 12 of 58 19 June 2013 at 2:36pm | IP Logged | ||
I've always thought your Russian is brilliant. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Ogrim Heptaglot Senior Member France Joined 4640 days ago 991 posts - 1896 votes Speaks: Norwegian*, English, Spanish, French, Romansh, German, Italian Studies: Russian, Catalan, Latin, Greek, Romanian | Message 13 of 58 19 June 2013 at 2:44pm | IP Logged | ||
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Hi tricoteuse, I only discovered your blog and contributions to the forum today. As a fellow Norwegian (well, almost, I see you have Swedish as native language, but you live and study in Norway don't you?) I just wanted to say hello and congratulate you on your exam result. I'll be reading your log from now on, as Russian is one language I really want to learn well, and then other Slavic languages may follow.
I also went back and discovered your Old Church Slavonic log - very interesting as well and something I also have on my "wish list" of languages to learn. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| hribecek Triglot Senior Member Czech Republic Joined 5350 days ago 1243 posts - 1458 votes Speaks: English*, Czech, Spanish Studies: Italian, Polish, Slovak, Hungarian, Toki Pona, Russian | Message 14 of 58 19 June 2013 at 5:16pm | IP Logged | ||
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I've also only just discovered this log and your blog and will be following. As a fellow lover of Slavic languages, this is right up my street. I'm planning to start Ukrainian or Russian in the next few months after a few other language projects are finished.
I read 'Twilight' in Czech and can confirm that it's not too complex and very engaging so as to keep your concentration on what you're reading. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| prz_ Tetraglot Senior Member Poland last.fm/user/prz_rul Joined 4860 days ago 890 posts - 1190 votes Speaks: Polish*, English, Bulgarian, Croatian Studies: Slovenian, Macedonian, Persian, Russian, Turkish, Ukrainian, Dutch, Swedish, German, Italian, Armenian, Kurdish | Message 15 of 58 20 June 2013 at 12:45am | IP Logged | ||
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Крайно, някаква славянска душа. Даже и от Скандинавия :-о
Супраският кодекс... Боже мой! Помня, какви проблеми (и половина от групата ми също) имах със старобългарски... КОШМАР! А ти ощте писал ли си магистърскатата работа си по тази тема? Ок, нямам по-вече въпроси... Български, това е вярно, е много интересен език, когато става дума за граматиката и за думите, но... (сега Кристоф ще ме убие), страхувам се, че българският малко ми е дошъл до гуши. Няма да кажа за историите с текущата лекторка ми, но просто виждам, че, за мен, България не е така интересна: всичко свързано с нея не е така хубаво, за да се въз хищавам, но не така трагическо, за да се смея с нея. Искрено, винаги бях за екс-ю и исках да следвам хрватски, но нямах щастие с набирането на факултета ми. Ех... Ну... Так я понимаю, что ты изучал русски по университете? И какие твое впечатления из факультета? У меня русский только дополнительный язык (обязательный, но у нас его немного. И я не могу сказать, что я говорю довольно хорошо по-русски). П.С. Сумерки! Я ешо не читал по-русски, но по-английски читалось одлично. И это не важно, что люди критикуют. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| tricoteuse Pentaglot Senior Member Norway littlang.blogspot.co Joined 6679 days ago 745 posts - 845 votes Speaks: Swedish*, Norwegian, EnglishC1, Russian, French Studies: Ukrainian, Bulgarian | Message 16 of 58 21 June 2013 at 6:11pm | IP Logged | ||
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Thanks, Mark! :)
Hello Ogrim and hribecek, always fun to see that my rather narrow interests are shared by someone else as well! Ogrim, I'm very much Swedish, but I've been living in Norway for 6 years, and I can't really say I fully identify with Sweden and swedes anymore. Russian is an excellent first Slavic language, it helps with anything else related afterwards since materials for... just about anything can always be found in Russian. Feel free to ask for tips and advice regarding Russian materials (including literature) once you get to that point! hribecek, I used to study Hungarian too! It was my favourite language of all times, but I couldn't keep it up when I got a bit more busy both socially and at the university. Then I went all-Slavic instead. It's a shame, since it's undoubtedly one of the most interesting languages there are. prz: Так как я вообще не могу писать на болгарском, я решила, что отвечу тебе на русском. Но я рада, если люди тут хотят писать на болгарском (или на другом славянском языке, если только это один из тех, которые я понимаю). У тебя были уроки по старославянскому в Польше? У нас были студенты и из России, и из Чехии, и им совсем не нравились наши уроки старослваянского ;) Девушка из Чехии сказала, что уехала оттуда учиться в Норвегии частью из-за того, что там у них так много старославяского, и первый наш курс с ней в Осло был именно "Старославянская Грамматика". Она не была очень-то довольна :D Да, я изучила русский язык в университете тут. Наш факультет достаточно старомодный - у нас преподавание русского сосредоточится на грамматике и на переводе (с норвежского на русский, что для меня вообще нелепо). Мы очень мало читаем; если хочешь изучить литературу и через литературу и познакомиться с языком, надо сам выбрать такие курсы (их очень мало), и следовательно, на них ходят очень разные люди, большинство из которых - русские, которые только хотят добиваться больше баллов без усилия. Кроме грамматики (большая часть которой теоретическая, то есть мы пишем маленькие научные "статьи") и переводов, у нас есть старославянский как основная часть изучение русского (!!) на высшем уровне. Поэтому, мои друзья из программы русского языка сегодня не имеют говорить по-русски, а только немного понимают и могут тебе объяснить теоретическую систему видов глагола. Мы редко сами писали или говорили по-русски. Только вечные переводы. Те, кто знают русский, почти все прожили год в России или в Белоруссии. Edited by tricoteuse on 21 June 2013 at 6:12pm 2 persons have voted this message useful |
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